Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3643318)

I remember when I first joined YorkieTalk everyone was singing the praises of Greenies, and I bought some for Joey. Soon after that, I started reading about all the animals dying and the product was being recalled and reformulated. Apparently, greenies weren’t 100% digestible, and some dogs died of an intestinal blockage. Had these been properly tested in a lab, doctors could have saved the dog’s lives because they would know what signs to look for, pet owners aren’t always aware of dangers, until it’s too late. I had no idea they could even sell products not tested first. So I'm not impressed with products that brag about not being tested on animals, they just mean "It's not tested on animals in a safe controlled environment."

Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 3643271)

I believe it's realistic that my good friend - who is a RVP for a very large pharmaceutical company . . . could take a few less trips to Hawaii on the company dime.

They pay their people VERY WELL and while I know they have scaled back to some degree - their profits are obscene.

On a purely philosophical level, I will never agree that this is just how it has to be. Have we not evolved any higher than what I saw in that video? We might as well be apes living in the jungle.

It's wrong. I don't eat lobster; I don't eat veal; I don't use comestics that are tested on animals and my meat is bought at my local Farmers Market. I don't wear animal fur or leather. Free range chicken is the best I can do. I KNOW that I still benefit from all the horrible ways we treat our animals . . .but I will never say . . . that's ok with me. That's just how it is and look away.

Sometimes wrong is just wrong. It's wrong to torture when it doesn't have to be done that way.

Same goes for our meat processing plants. Some of the people that work in those places are no better than animals. Now I realize that the job probably doesn't attract the best of the best - but still.

There is no good answer; on that I agree. I disagree that nothing can ever, ever be done to make things better. If I felt that way - I would never volunteer at my local soup kitchen. There will always be homeless, right? Why bother?

Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 3643299)

I think this has shifted from no animal testing being done, period, to only animal testing if it is as humane as possible. I don't think any animal lover would argue the latter. But I'm not going to be the one boycotting drug companies to get them to change because they are a little hard to live without for some people.. Food products are a bit different. You can almost always choose a different brand.

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho (Post 3643323)

I'm sorry to get OT, but are the greenies dental chews safe now? I bought a bag last week for Teddy and since I'm a new pet owner I didn't know there were any dangers/recall issues?

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3643329)

The manufacturer of the company says that they are reformulated and are 99.9% digestible, except for maybe a piece the size of a grain of rice. I haven’t heard of any deaths involved with the new ones, but I’ve lost faith in the company. This all happened around 4 1/2 years ago.

Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 3643271)

I believe it's realistic that my good friend - who is a RVP for a very large pharmaceutical company . . . could take a few less trips to Hawaii on the company dime.

They pay their people VERY WELL and while I know they have scaled back to some degree - their profits are obscene.

On a purely philosophical level, I will never agree that this is just how it has to be. Have we not evolved any higher than what I saw in that video? We might as well be apes living in the jungle.

It's wrong. I don't eat lobster; I don't eat veal; I don't use comestics that are tested on animals and my meat is bought at my local Farmers Market. I don't wear animal fur or leather. Free range chicken is the best I can do. I KNOW that I still benefit from all the horrible ways we treat our animals . . .but I will never say . . . that's ok with me. That's just how it is and look away.

Sometimes wrong is just wrong. It's wrong to torture when it doesn't have to be done that way.

Same goes for our meat processing plants. Some of the people that work in those places are no better than animals. Now I realize that the job probably doesn't attract the best of the best - but still.

There is no good answer; on that I agree. I disagree that nothing can ever, ever be done to make things better. If I felt that way - I would never volunteer at my local soup kitchen. There will always be homeless, right? Why bother?

Originally Posted by Maximo (Post 3643324)

It is private company. The alternative is to have govt take over the pharmaceutical companies, cap profits. Elected officials and bureaucrats take junkets, trips to nice vacay spots on the office dime too. Their salaries and especially pensions could be viewed as obscene.

Whether they could do a better job producing safe products without testing inhumanely on animals....well, the debate is still there.

The means of testing is not a money issue in my opinion. All the money in the world won't change whether or not testing is necessary.

:thumbup:

Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 3643423)

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one Maximo. Watch the video and tell me it's ok and you are fine with it.

It is a huge jump to go from responsible billing practices to . . have the government take over. There's a happy medium in there somwhere.

Of course, they could do a better job and money is always an issue with everything.

I don't want to continue this ad nauseum so I'll stop here and you can have the last word.

I feel just as passionately about this issue as you do and we certainly need to hear from ALL ends of the spectrum.

Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 3643271)

I believe it's realistic that my good friend - who is a RVP for a very large pharmaceutical company . . . could take a few less trips to Hawaii on the company dime.

They pay their people VERY WELL and while I know they have scaled back to some degree - their profits are obscene.

On a purely philosophical level, I will never agree that this is just how it has to be. Have we not evolved any higher than what I saw in that video? We might as well be apes living in the jungle.

It's wrong. I don't eat lobster; I don't eat veal; I don't use comestics that are tested on animals and my meat is bought at my local Farmers Market. I don't wear animal fur or leather. Free range chicken is the best I can do. I KNOW that I still benefit from all the horrible ways we treat our animals . . .but I will never say . . . that's ok with me. That's just how it is and look away.

Sometimes wrong is just wrong. It's wrong to torture when it doesn't have to be done that way.

Same goes for our meat processing plants. Some of the people that work in those places are no better than animals. Now I realize that the job probably doesn't attract the best of the best - but still.

There is no good answer; on that I agree. I disagree that nothing can ever, ever be done to make things better. If I felt that way - I would never volunteer at my local soup kitchen. There will always be homeless, right? Why bother?

Originally Posted by sallyann (Post 3643034)

well I guess its all in the eye of the beholder, and the way you look at things. Sadly our society these days doesn't think they are held responsible for what others do in life. If we don't stand up for what is right, then who will. If not me or you than who will. We can't just all go along with the flow. Because then you have a country that your grand-kids live in that that no one cares about anybody else s feelings. We have to do the right thing for our own sanity and peace of mind. If its okay to treat an animal this way, then next it will be okay to treat people this way, not to say that its not already happening. We are human beings that think and feel and care about suffering of others. And if this way isn't right we find another way! I don't know all the answers, only what is right and good and what is evil. People that have these kind of occupations I am sure don't sleep well at night and suffer from all kinds of ailments. Because in their heart they know its not right. I'd hate to meet the kind of person it doesn't bother. That's a whole other animal! I sure I must of upset some people and I am sorry it bothered you. But I have to do and say whats right.

Originally Posted by gidget529 (Post 3652855)

Thought I'd weigh in, for the whole less than a penny it's worth. The first open heart surgeries were tested on dogs by Dr. Blalock and Dr. Vivien Thomas of Johns Hopkins University Hospital. They were performed to try to help children with a congenital disorder called Tetralogy of Fallot. The "heart lung machine" developed to perform this procedure and skillset learned are the foundation of open heart surgery as we know it today. Before this was developed, ppl died of heart disorders bc it was believed operating on the heart itself was almost a religious sacrilege.

That being said, I am grateful to these animals that gave their lives so that others' lives can be saved. I hope they were treated humanely and with dignity.

I think it is not such a black/white topic. Do we have the right to view human lives as more valuable? Ellie May brings up a good point about vet med testing on animals. There we are viewing some animals more valuable than others. Do we have the right to do so? Not sure. Where would we be without it, though?

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3652864)

Amen to that! I think the one thing I'm almost sure of, is that the more you learn, the more you realize almost nothing is black and white.