I am very sorry for your loss of Sammie, and for Berri's illness.

I don't know where they come from, but would assume medical research beagles play a part.

Yes, some would consider it cruelty because animals could get very sick. I'm not sure there is a way around it though. Sad as it is, I'd rather a medical beagle get sick from a food than my family pets.

If a company thinks their food is so great, then their should be no risk to the pups. Sadly, they just assume it's okay. There are foods that do not pass AAFCO feeding trials. It's not a great system, but certainly much better than nothing. The old boots and motor oil meeting the guaranteed analysis profile and thus being approved by AAFCO may be true, but when put in a feeding trial, those types of ingredients would not pass digestibility testing. I'm surprised more people aren't in favor of trying food from companies who do feeding trials first.

Old boots and motor oil...had not heard that one.

Fromm's website says: "Animal feeding testing using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Fromm Family Four Star Nutritionals™ Chicken À La Veg™ Dog Food provides complete and balanced nutrition"

Is this the same as feeding trials?

From Pet food - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Dog and cat foods labeled as "complete and balanced" must meet standards established by the AAFCO either by meeting a nutrient profile or by passing a feeding trial. Cat and Dog Food Nutrient Profiles were last updated by the AAFCO's Feline Nutrition Expert Subcommittee (1991-1992) and the Canine Nutrition Expert Subcommittee (1990-1991), respectively. The updated profiles replaced the previous recommendations set by the National Research Council (NRC).[13] The NRC published new recommendations in 2006; AAFCO is currently (2010) in the process of updating the nutrient profiles.

Products that are substantiated to be "complete and balanced" by feeding trials bear the label statement "animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that (name of product) provides complete and balanced nutrition." The protocol requires that 6 out of 8 animals complete a 26 week feeding trial without showing clinical or pathological signs of nutritional deficiency or excess. The cats' or dogs' general health is evaluated by a veterinarian before and after the test. Four blood values, hemoglobin, packed cell volume, serum alkaline phosphatase and serum albumin are measured after the trial and the average values of the test subjects must meet minimum levels. No animal is allowed to lose more than 15% of its starting weight.

Products that are formulated with ingredients to meet the established nutrient profile would include the following statement. "(Name of product) is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Cat/Dog Food Nutrient Profiles." There are two separate nutrient profiles - one for "growth and reproduction" and one for "adult maintenance". The nutritional adequacy statement would include info on which life stage(s) the product is suitable for. A product labeled as "for all life stages" must meet the more stringent nutrient profile for "growth and reproduction". Products labeled as "intended for intermittent or supplemental feeding" do not need to meet either profile.

The "Family Rule" allows a manufacturer to have a product that is "nutritionally similar" to another product in the same "family" to adopt the latter's "complete and balanced" statement without itself undergoing any feeding tests. The "similar" food must be of the same processing type; contain the same moisture content; bear a statement of nutritional adequacy for the same or less demanding life stage as the lead product; contain a dry matter metabolizable energy (ME) content within 7.5% of the lead product's dry matter; meet the same levels of crude protein, calcium, phosphorus, zinc, lysine, thiamine (and for cat foods, potassium and taurine) as the lead food; and meet or exceed the nutrient levels and ratios of the lead family product or the AAFCO Nutrient Profiles, whichever is lower. The label statement on the similar food can be the same as the lead product if the ME is substantiated by the 10-day ME feeding study.[14]

Critics of the AAFCO standards argue that such requirements are too lax. Generational studies conducted by researchers at University of California, Davis have shown that some foods that pass AAFCO's feeding trials are still not suitable for long term use and estimated that of 100 foods that pass the nutritional analysis, 10 to 20 would not pass the feeding trials.[15]

Although maximum levels of intake of some nutrients have been established because of concerns with overnutrition, many still lack a maximum allowed level and some contains large disparity between maximum and minimum values.[16] The NRC accepts that despite ongoing research, large gaps still exist in the knowledge of quantitative nutritional information for specific nutrients.[17] Some professionals acknowledge the possibilities of phytochemicals and other vital nutrients that have yet to be recognized as essential by nutritional science. With such broad guidelines and loose feeding trial standards, critics argue that the term "complete and balanced" is inaccurate and even deceptive. An AAFCO panel expert has stated that "although the AAFCO profiles are better than nothing, they provide false securities."James G. Morris and Quinton R. Rogers Assessment of the Nutritional Adequacy of Pet Foods through the Life Cycle. J. Nutr. 124: 2520S-2534S, 1994."

OMG I just watched that video! Only part of it that was all I could stomach! It made me so sad! I will never buy P&G again or anything Iams. ALso will let everyone know how they are so cruel to animals.

Yes, if the AAFCO statement on the bag says feeding tests or feeding trials, then their were AAFCO feeding trials done on the food.

It is far from a great system; however, I don't think that is any excuse to skip it. Unless they have done better feeding trials with OUTSIDE vets (not within the company), then AAFCO has to do.

Thanks Ellie and Maximo

Ellie I did not know of the issues with BB as I had been feeding it with no issue so I thought but then it hit us like a tornado and I am to blame as I should have researched it better. I wish I had stayed with RC or Solid Gold. The vet is totally behind the fact that BB has caused this and well we have 2 vets and they had a meeting and will be looking it to it more. all I was to do is warn all that BB can be lethal as it was to my Sammie.. so far Berri is ok. BB said they will replace Sammie and pay all vet bills on both dogs, big deal you can't replace love.... I keep thinking of when we had our poodle and 3 other childhood dogs all lived to be 14-16 never sick just one broken leg and all they ate was purina dog chow, since back in the day we didn't have all these designer dog foods....maybe Purina knows what they are doing after all

I agree, can't replace love. :( Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

:thumbup::thumbup:
Now I am totally confused what to feed.
Currently feeding Fromm's Chicken A La Veg.
Mickey is pooping all the time (only feeding 1/2 c day) and Max is going big piles. Gas issues for Mickey.

Have a bag of Nature's Variety Prairie Chicken and TOTW Sierra (both unopened).

Was going to get a bag of SD Ideal Balance and sales clerk ran over and told me SD is bad food and to get the NV.

I never listen to the sales people in stores- sorry, but what kind of training is necessary to work in a pet store? Zero.

I make my own decisions regarding food (with my vets input) and then just walk in and buy what I want, if a sales person tries to steer me towards something else, I smile politely and say "thank you for your advice, but this is what my vet recommends".

I am very sorry to hear that. That is extremely distressing.

I'm sorry I feel for you, it was so hard to find a food that Joey liked and did well on. Of course, the reviews even confused things more. I don't think a food should give a dog gas, I mean if a food has more fiber than a dog is use to, it might take a week or so to get use to the added fiber and this could cause gas, but if it's going on longer than that, I'd find another food. Gas is a sign that they are not digesting the food, for whatever reason. Large piles of poop aren't a good sign either, I think there might be too much indigestible fiber in the food. I mean, are they getting enough nourishment, if they can't digest so much of it? Poop is basically what our bodies can't digest and don't need, a little fiber is good, it keeps the intestinal tract in good order, after all, we don’t want our dogs pooping pellets, but it may be too much of a good thing.

I would not listen to the sales clerk either.

Sorry to hear that the Fromm is not working for your kiddos. Do they eat anything in addition to their kibble? My boys eat that same food and if I add anything to their diet, they have problems. When it is pure kibble, they are great.

I hope you find something that works for you.

Really? I can't think of anything sadder than being stuck in a cage being tested on so someone else's pet doesn't get sick.

How do you suggest we test? First of all, dogs don't necessarily hate kennels, and kennels can be humane. Also, if a food isn't giving a dog proper nourishment, it's much better that they would be learned in a clinical environment where they are constantly checking blood samples and doing tests. At home you might not learn that the dog is severely malnourished until it's too late. I would hope the labs would be filled with dog lovers who ensure that dogs are being treated appropriately. I think we all should be against inhumane experiments, but not all experiments are inhumane. If the lab doesn’t test, you are the experimenter.