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-   -   Bile Acid Test (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yorkie-health-diet/212856-bile-acid-test.html)

cally930 09-17-2010 08:22 AM
Bile Acid Test
 
I took Beckham in for his Bile Acid Test today. I dropped him off at 8am and they called me at 11am that he was ready to go home. When I went to pick him up I assumed they were going to give me the results but they said they will most likely be in on Monday. From reading previous threads it looks like everyone else has gotten their results immediately.

First - I thought it went too quickly. Is 3 hours long enough?
Second - Do the tests usually go out to a lab before you get results?

bchgirl 09-17-2010 09:07 AM
Yes, 3 hours is long enough and yes, sometimes the blood work is processed outside the vet's office.

107barney 09-17-2010 10:38 AM
We always do outside blood work for BAT. In house blood work can be unreliable. Timing - the blood is drawn before eating and then 2 hours after eating for BAT.

luvfla 09-17-2010 11:08 AM
My kidz tests are always sent out so, yes, it does take a few days.

Patti 09-17-2010 01:24 PM
Cali's were done by an outside lab and took a few days to get results. Hoping you get good news.

yorkielady06 09-17-2010 04:29 PM
Bile acids are done pre and post prandial, meaning they draw the blood on a 12 hour fasted dog before eating. They then feed a high protein food (usually AD canned) then wait 2 hours and draw the post prandial. I always use an outside lab as in house ones are not as accurate and outside labs here double check for accuracy. Results are usually the next day or no later than 2 days after the draw.
Did you also have them do the liver panel and complete blood count?
Fingers crossed for good news for you and your pup.:)

cally930 09-17-2010 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkielady06 (Post 3273817)
Bile acids are done pre and post prandial, meaning they draw the blood on a 12 hour fasted dog before eating. They then feed a high protein food (usually AD canned) then wait 2 hours and draw the post prandial. I always use an outside lab as in house ones are not as accurate and outside labs here double check for accuracy. Results are usually the next day or no later than 2 days after the draw.
Did you also have them do the liver panel and complete blood count?
Fingers crossed for good news for you and your pup.:)
Thank you for the info. And yes, they did a liver panel and blood count. So, I'll find out Monday. Thank you everyone for your support. I really do appreciate it.

107barney 09-17-2010 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkielady06 (Post 3273817)
Bile acids are done pre and post prandial, meaning they draw the blood on a 12 hour fasted dog before eating. They then feed a high protein food (usually AD canned) then wait 2 hours and draw the post prandial. I always use an outside lab as in house ones are not as accurate and outside labs here double check for accuracy. Results are usually the next day or no later than 2 days after the draw.
Did you also have them do the liver panel and complete blood count?
Fingers crossed for good news for you and your pup.:)
BAT testing preprandial no longer requires a 12-hour fast per Dr. Center's protocol. I still fast my dog for consistent results because we started with fasting samples so I like to see the changes.

I also do not feed my dog AD canned for a BAT postprandial reading and never have nor has AD canned ever been suggested or recommended. The protocol suggests that the dog eat a normal meal of a normal size - so whatever the dog has been eating is what is usually fed.

107barney 09-17-2010 05:01 PM
How old is Beckham? BATs should be done in a puppy at 16 weeks and again at 6 months for reliable and interpretable results.

cally930 09-17-2010 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 3273844)
How old is Beckham? BATs should be done in a puppy at 16 weeks and again at 6 months for reliable and interpretable results.
He is 8 months old. Now, do you mean for accuracy it should be done twice. Why at 16 weeks and why at 6 months? Is it not as accurate - say you test him at 1 or 2 years old?

107barney 09-17-2010 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cally930 (Post 3273849)
He is 8 months old. Now, do you mean for accuracy it should be done twice. Why at 16 weeks and why at 6 months? Is it not as accurate - say you test him at 1 or 2 years old?
Dr. Center's protocol states that puppies should be BAT tested at 16 weeks and again at 6 months old. So if your dog was younger than 16 weeks, I was pointing out the need to repeat it at least at age 6 mos. If he is 8 mos old, then it is probably going to be a reliable test result whereas young puppies may not be (due to many physiological changes occurring in developing pups and other factors).

Is this routine testing or is he having a problem?

cally930 09-17-2010 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 3273861)
Dr. Center's protocol states that puppies should be BAT tested at 16 weeks and again at 6 months old. So if your dog was younger than 16 weeks, I was pointing out the need to repeat it at least at age 6 mos. If he is 8 mos old, then it is probably going to be a reliable test result whereas young puppies may not be (due to many physiological changes occurring in developing pups and other factors).

Is this routine testing or is he having a problem?
He has retained his baby teeth - the entire top row and a couple on the bottom, so we need to have them removed. However, he is on the small side (2.5 lbs) and decided prior to having him go under anesthesia - lets just make sure that there are no underlying problems. He has already had xrays done - so that all looked good (that was done due a never ending cough - to rule out any trachea problems - cough is now gone). I am a little concerned because the tech just kind of said - "The doctor doesn't put any animal under 3lbs under anesthesia". He is scheduled for Friday, so I'm hoping at least that all the tests come back okay - and then I'll worry for the next thing. Any suggestions as to what I should be asking or saying when it comes to the anesthesia?

107barney 09-17-2010 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cally930 (Post 3273869)
He has retained his baby teeth - the entire top row and a couple on the bottom, so we need to have them removed. However, he is on the small side (2.5 lbs) and decided prior to having him go under anesthesia - lets just make sure that there are no underlying problems. He has already had xrays done - so that all looked good (that was done due a never ending cough - to rule out any trachea problems - cough is now gone). I am a little concerned because the tech just kind of said - "The doctor doesn't put any animal under 3lbs under anesthesia". He is scheduled for Friday, so I'm hoping at least that all the tests come back okay - and then I'll worry for the next thing. Any suggestions as to what I should be asking or saying when it comes to the anesthesia?
Here is a sticky on anesthesia. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-protocol.html

Note that if your dog has a liver issue that may be revealed by the BAT testing, it important valium-type drugs NOT be used.

107barney 09-17-2010 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cally930 (Post 3273869)
He has retained his baby teeth - the entire top row and a couple on the bottom, so we need to have them removed. However, he is on the small side (2.5 lbs) and decided prior to having him go under anesthesia - lets just make sure that there are no underlying problems. He has already had xrays done - so that all looked good (that was done due a never ending cough - to rule out any trachea problems - cough is now gone). I am a little concerned because the tech just kind of said - "The doctor doesn't put any animal under 3lbs under anesthesia". He is scheduled for Friday, so I'm hoping at least that all the tests come back okay - and then I'll worry for the next thing. Any suggestions as to what I should be asking or saying when it comes to the anesthesia?

Well if the Doctor does not put the dog under anesthesia, then someone is going to have to remove the teeth....Here is a link to someone on Long Island who is a board certified dentist. They may have an anesthesiologist on staff who deals with high risk cases and may be able to suggest a protocol. Maybe you should call and ask them about it. Veterinary Medical Center of Long Island Services

cally930 09-17-2010 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 3273879)
Here is a sticky on anesthesia. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-protocol.html

Note that if your dog has a liver issue that may be revealed by the BAT testing, it important valium-type drugs NOT be used.
I had read this before - but honestly - I did not feel any more prepared with what may happen due to his size. I mean, can he die by being put under anesthesia? And you know, I kind of know the answer to that as well, but what else can I do? I have done a lot, I mean a lot of reading and research - but I still feel sick to my stomach when I think about this. I guess in the end - he has to have this done - and all I can do is pray.

cally930 09-17-2010 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 3273887)
Well if the Doctor does not put the dog under anesthesia, then someone is going to have to remove the teeth....Here is a link to someone on Long Island who is a board certified dentist. They may have an anesthesiologist on staff who deals with high risk cases and may be able to suggest a protocol. Maybe you should call and ask them about it. Veterinary Medical Center of Long Island Services
You know, they are not far from me at all. I think I will give them a call on Monday - just to see what they say. That is if they will even talk to me on the phone. I expect that they would want me to make an appointment to examine Beckham and then talk to me. But I'll give it a try anyway.

Thanks so much for this.

107barney 09-17-2010 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cally930 (Post 3273899)
You know, they are not far from me at all. I think I will give them a call on Monday - just to see what they say. That is if they will even talk to me on the phone. I expect that they would want me to make an appointment to examine Beckham and then talk to me. But I'll give it a try anyway.

Thanks so much for this.
I bet they will give you some general info - I found that to be the case recently when I contacted the dentist in Boston for Daisy who is a high risk case. They were great and I was very concerned with Daisy because she is liver-compromised and just turned 10 so I had a lot of worries when she broke her tooth. Just ask to speak to the dental tech and say you're thinking of taking your little guy there. Nothing is a failure but a try, right?? So call!

yorkielady06 09-17-2010 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 3273841)
BAT testing preprandial no longer requires a 12-hour fast per Dr. Center's protocol. I still fast my dog for consistent results because we started with fasting samples so I like to see the changes.

I also do not feed my dog AD canned for a BAT postprandial reading and never have nor has AD canned ever been suggested or recommended. The protocol suggests that the dog eat a normal meal of a normal size - so whatever the dog has been eating is what is usually fed.
Mine are tested at 6 months and all of mine were done with a 12 hour fast so I continue with that. Weird about the AD as my vet, my old vet, and the vet that does the liver shunt surgery here all have done the AD.
I bought a girl 7 years ago for breeding and at 9 months found out she had a liver shunt. She had no signs prior to that and was 4 pounds and ate like a horse but failed the BAT with AD. After 3 months and another pound and testing with Ultrasound she then had her surgery and had one huge shunt. She was also spayed and had her puppy teeth pulled at that time.
So I hear you on Dr. Centers recommendations however my vets do the AD and it has not failed me yet.

107barney 09-17-2010 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkielady06 (Post 3273913)
Mine are tested at 6 months and all of mine were done with a 12 hour fast so I continue with that. Weird about the AD as my vet, my old vet, and the vet that does the liver shunt surgery here all have done the AD.
I bought a girl 7 years ago for breeding and at 9 months found out she had a liver shunt. She had no signs prior to that and was 4 pounds and ate like a horse but failed the BAT with AD. After 3 months and another pound and testing with Ultrasound she then had her surgery and had one huge shunt. She was also spayed and had her puppy teeth pulled at that time.
So I hear you on Dr. Centers recommendations however my vets do the AD and it has not failed me yet.
If it works for you that's great but that's not the protocol to feed AD. The protocol is to feed a normal meal of normal size. Ditto for fasting preprandial samples....not the protocol. I fast also but that's my own choice and I usually do draw for chem at the same time. I've never heard of AD...we have used L/D in our dog but she didn't do well so we now do home cooked.

cally930 09-20-2010 08:40 AM
OK - so his results came in.

Pre - 6.7
Post - 35.7

Should there be any concern? Vet says it looks good, although the post is a bit higher than norm. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts - Please!

107barney 09-20-2010 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cally930 (Post 3275681)
OK - so his results came in.

Pre - 6.7
Post - 35.7

Should there be any concern? Vet says it looks good, although the post is a bit higher than norm. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts - Please!
The post number is over the reference value for normal - to me that's high. Daisy's values have gone from 107 previously down to 33 and currently shes at about 3.9....this still warrants non-valium type drugs including anesthesia. I would inquire about this to be sure - it won't hurt to avoid those drugs just in case there is something going on with the liver. To me those are not normal results. Normal is less than 10 pre and under 20 post.

Patti 09-20-2010 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 3275692)
The post number is over the reference value for normal - to me that's high. Daisy's values have gone from 107 previously down to 33 and currently shes at about 3.9....this still warrants non-valium type drugs including anesthesia. I would inquire about this to be sure - it won't hurt to avoid those drugs just in case there is something going on with the liver. To me those are not normal results. Normal is less than 10 pre and under 20 post.
Cali's numbers were higher and she was diagnosed with a very mild MVD,no treatment needed. However, my vet treats her like a liver compromised dog. She checks any meds she puts her on to see if they are safe for her liver. When we had her teeth done a few months ago she used a special protocol due to her mild MVD. So I would ask the vet about that.

107barney 09-20-2010 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patti (Post 3275703)
Cali's numbers were higher and she was diagnosed with a very mild MVD,no treatment needed. However, my vet treats her like a liver compromised dog. She checks any meds she puts her on to see if they are safe for her liver. When we had her teeth done a few months ago she used a special protocol due to her mild MVD. So I would ask the vet about that.
I'm assuming that you meant cali's numbers were higher than the OPs dog and not my dog (u quoted me)....my dog has severe liver disease. She also has BATs of 13 pre and 3.9 post. I still will never permit any type of Valium drugs or Valium derivatives and I make sure every vet and tech writes it down and knows it.

In a dog this small and with those numbers, I'd be asking a lot of questions about this before allowing my dog to be put under. JMO.


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