Raw/ High Protein and Liver Disease
 

has anyone ever fed raw to a dog with liver disease (specifically MVD if it matters), I would love to hear your experiences.

I was recently reading an article that was saying that low protein isnt really necessary and can actually ahve negative effects for liver compromised dogs, it is about the TYPE of protein they are eating and that dogs with compromised livers CAN eat raw.

I dont know if I would ever feed raw anyway (more of a money/ availability issue than anything else) but am starting to wonder if having my dogs on such a low protein diet is really doing more harm then good and thinking about supplementing "good proteins" to their current food.

Anyway, a lot of random ramblings... just wanted to see if there was anyone on here feeding raw to a liver compromised dog and if they could give me their experiences.

Was the article on the web? Could you link it? I've got to warn you I think very little of some of the information I've read on the web, very often they only give one side of the story, and if you don't know enough, they can be very convincing. Some of the sites look like independent sites but aren't.

unfortunately I couldnt find the site again when I tried to this morning... I dont remember what I was researching when i came across it either.

Usually I take what I read on the internet with a grain of salt but I just havent been happy with my dogs on the lower protein foods and since it was brought up that they may do well on higher protein if it was the right kinds of protein I just wondered if anyone else had experience with it.

That happens to me all the time, Sundays are a slow day around here, I don't know anything about MVD, I think I've read that it's not just the amount of protein, but the quality that's important, but that's all I know. If you bump your thread a few times, I'm sure you'll get some good advice.

Have you joined that Yahoo group? I can't remember the name; but the whole protocol is based on low protein or vetagable/soy protein as opposed to meat protein.

It seems that most of their dogs have more severe symptoms than ours; but I get the impression that they have done a pretty good job keeping their dogs stable - despite the severity of the disease.

Lucy's is so minor (we think) that I don't have her on a presciption 'low protein' food. I do have her on a lower protein food than my Westie - who eats high protein.

Lucy's whole problem was discovered after I was feeding her Ringo's high protein food = combined with some canned beef that someone had given me. She had a terrible week-end complete with neurological symptoms. She hasn't had another episode since I started watching her protein intake; and completely restricted any red meat. So I don't know if it was the high protein + the type of protein . . or just one other the other.

If you find anything out - keep us posted. She is not crazy about her Wellness food - but seems to be doing well on it.

She's had some diarrhea all weekend and is now on a bland diet of cooked rice and little bits of chicken (yes, chicken = she won't eat plain rice) . . . but that's a whole nother story. Sigh.

I feel like I have a newborn again . . when we couldn't find the right formula!

I found an article on-line about this issue. My veterinarian said high-protein diets are safe for dogs. I'm not saying this article is accurate, but I've read other articles similar to the information given. I am very interested in this topic. I feed Sydney Evo dry (salmon/herring). It has 42% protein, but low in carbs. I'm questioning if I should stick with Evo or switch.

Focusing On Protein - Nutrition Related - ThePetCenter.com - The Internet Animal Hospital

Your research is correct in defining the type of protein that negatively impacts the liver and the kidneys. Animal based proteins,(aka complete proteins) create far less by-product waste for both the liver and the kidneys to handle. When being digested and excreted through the body, incomplete proteins that are found in grains and vegetables, create excessive waste that has to be filtered through both liver and kidneys, and with breeds such as Yorkies who are already prone to diseases with these two organs, it becomes an issue.
The articles below are worthy of exploration. There is one specifically about nutrition and liver issues, but it might be on another computer. When I find it, I will post it for you.
Hope this helps.

The one Kirby posted is also an excellent resource.

Is too much protein harmful

Pet Nutrition

I believe that Dr. Tobias is one of the leading experts on MVD, and she says:

There is no surgical treatment for HMD. Dogs with the condition are managed medically, and treatment is based on the severity of the condition. In some dogs no treatment is needed. The mainstay of medical management is to reduce the amount of protein in the diet. Specific veterinary diets such as Hill’s L/d have been formulated for dogs with liver disease. The protein is highly digestible (often milk based or soy) and is only mildly protein restricted. Diets for dogs with HMD should contain about 15-20% protein (roughly 2 g/kg per day of protein), 15-30% fat, and 30-50% highly digestible carbohydrates on a dry matter basis. They should also be high in zinc and Vitamin E and low in manganese. Most dogs with HMD do well on diet change alone.

Changing the type of bacteria that live in the intestines can also decrease toxin production and absorption. This can be accomplished by giving lactulose syrup or yogurt. Some veterinarians may prescribe antibiotics for a short time as well.

Nutriceuticals- compounds that are not considered “drugs”- can also improve liver function. Milk thistle (“silymarin”) can help improve liver function and regeneration. Because the government does not regulate over-the-counter compounds, purchase of specially formulated veterinary supplements is recommended. Two veterinary companies that sell milk thistle include Nutrimax (“Marin”) and RxVitamins (“Hepatosupport”). Veterinarians may also prescribe Denosyl (SAM-e) to improve liver function. MVD

I'm not sure, but it seems like some of the answers you are getting is just talking about the amount of protein in a normal dog's diet.

First of all, there is a common misconception that a raw diet is 100% protein or something like that. That's just not true. For instance a chicken wing is about 20.8% protein.
Anyways, here the USDA site and you can get the nutritional value of foods on there so you don't have to take my word for it. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/


I am not familiar with your particular issue but I would encourage you to join this site and see what other raw feeders have experienced.
RawChat : Raw Chat

Good luck!

Some do feed their MVD dogs raw. IMO, it's not a good idea.

Liver compromised dogs have a higher likelihood of having compromised immune systems; thus, they may be more susceptible to food poisoning.

The raws food offered are generally do not contain the types of protein that liver compromised dogs do well with.

I see that Dr. Tobias recommends 15-20% protein and Dr. Center says some MVD dogs don't need any dietary management as far as I know. I'd take the approach that 40 and 50% protein is not good, but that doesn't mean you have to do 16% either. Even Dr. Tobias says 20% is okay... AAFCO says healthy dogs should be on 18% or higher. So how about something between 18-20%? Ellie's bile acids were 106. We do 24% protein. She was intolerant to the RC LS 14 and I don't think it would have been in her best interest long-term anyway.

I agree, too little protein can be a very bad thing.

Went through my files and found these links that might be of assistance to you. If I find anything else in my travels I will either post or pm.

Canine Liver Disease

Nutrition and Disease

Canine Liver Disease

Ellie... do you mind me asking what you feed?

fufu... thanks for the links, I am off to do some reading.

Homecooked...

I once thought Raw was the best and the way to go. I had TJ and Roxy on it for about 8 months. They LOVED it! But then I started to find out "stuff" about their breeder and other dogs having liver issues. So I decided to have their Bile Acids Tested. At the "same" time, Roxy was itching her skin raw, and she developed a staph infection. This itch, etc.. was so intense and it was never ending...lasted for months and months...

Anyway, her first BAT (while on Raw) came back as Pre: 43 and Post: 100.9

I immediately got her on a special low, but quality protein diet, and supplements to aid her liver. Her BAT range now is (60 to 80). MVD dogs will never have normal BAT results, but I do believe that the Raw (meat and organs) did have a negative impact on her.

Liver compromised dogs do best on Veggie or Dairy protein, vs. meat protein. You also have to be watchful of purines (meats and organs are soooo HIGH in purines).

I wouldn't suggest Raw :(

If you are interested in other food option, consider consulting a Pet-Vet Nutritionist for a homemade diet suitable for your kiddos ;)