More questions re: vaccine problems
 

Since the other thread was getting so long I thought I'd start a new one. We are leaning towards accepting the other puppy from the breeder. This is the 2nd litter from these parents. No other pups have had problems. Reading through various threads here has made me almost scared to have another yorkie. I do not want to go through this again - it was devastating for me, my husband and just crushed my children.
Are the neurological problems I keep reading about very common? If we take the other puppy I plan on getting the bile acid test immediately.
I called the vet today and asked if we could come in to discuss what had happened - that we just needed to get an understanding since it all happened so fast. They said sure - for a consultation fee of $45! That may be standard practice, but it just floored me. We already paid them $100 for her first visit and the shot, $435 for her hospital care and the euthanasia. Not to mention that we have taken our other dog there for years and spend $1200 for a surgery for him last year outside of his normal care. I don't know if we'll go or not now. (Sorry for the venting).
Anyway I just need some reassurance or knowledge I guess that taking the other puppy is a good idea. He is almost 2 pounds heavier than Sophie, is eathing and behaving normally, and is very playful. However, Sophie was the same until she had the shot. He has had no shots ( I think), but has seen the vet and been dewormed. Any help or ideas out there.

JCBL, I strongly recommend finding another vet.

If you trust your breeder that no other pups from the 2 litters experienced problems, I say follow your heart. I understand your fears. Have testing done immediately, and follow the vaccination protocol listed in the YT library.

Hi!

You mentioned about the other threat being too long?? What happened to your puppy? I am a new dog owner EVER! And I'm taking my 12 week old girl for vaccinations next weeK. She already had two of the parvo booster shots and something else (at the breeder), but the vet recommended bordatella and drontal plus???? I am so nervous about next week! I am even thinking about cancelling the appointment...

Thanks,

TJ

Answer
 

The other thread I started was too long - see it further down in the forum. It is titled Vaccine Death? and tells the whole story. I am very confused still, but from what I have read here I would be very cautious about vaccines, especially combined ones. We really don't know what happened. All I do know was that I had a seemingly perfectly healthy 11 week old Yorkie girl last Wednesday. She had the DA1LPP/Corona first vaccine that day and began a rapid descent where we had to euthanize her on Sunday morning. It was and continues to be horrible. Just do research and be cautious.

Read about vaccines in the YorkieTalk library: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html

My Yorkie was given unnecessary vaccines, he was given vaccines too early, and he was given too many in combination. Thank goodness he had no adverse reactions. I don't know about long-term effects.

We are coming up on our 1-year vaccinations and I will be following Dr. Jean Dodd's protocol (detailed in the linked thread).

JCBL...if these are young puppies...liver shunt testing won't really be conclusive at this young age anyway, right? I mean, I don't want you have a false sense of security, that's all. This other puppy is from the same litter?

Hopefully, the liver shut folks will chime in, as this is not really my area.

As for vaccines, I don't get corona, bordatella, lepto, giardia, or lymes. I follow Dr. Dodd's, llike Maximo mentioned :).

To mtjimenez - I would ask your vet "why the bordatella" - you can read more about that vaccine on Dodd's site :).

I'm sorry for your sudden loss of your little girl....Your fears are completely understandable, the not knowing as to why this happened only makes it worse.....After I acquired a new addition I couldn't relax for many months after losing one of mine at the hands of a vet.......It's a terrible feeling, all you can do is try and not let it effect your feelings with the new one......

Try and arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can, with knowledge comes calm and confidence.....Confidence in your decisions.......

There are some very good people out there doing studies and research on vaccines and pet health. Some good ones to start with are Dr. Jean Dodds....Dr. Bob Rogers....Dr. Schultz.....Catherine O Driscoll.....Dr. Pitcairn....Dr. M. Goldstein......

There is no rush to have to get vaccines in your pup, you have plenty of time to do so. A pet just entering a new environment is stressed, stressed pets are at risk for adverse reaction. This is from Dr. Dodds....

"The recently weaned young puppy or kitten entering a new environment is at greater risk here, as its relatively immature immune system can be temporarily or more permanently harmed. Consequences in later life may be the increased susceptibility to chronic debilitating diseases." (Dr. Dodds)

The wait also works better as to giving the pets immune system time to mature (this is about 6 months) and moms maternal antibodies are no longer present to block the vaccines. When you wait the pet needs less vaccines to get the needed response for the vaccine to produce antibodies.

There is absolutely no science behind the "sets of three" for parvo and distemper that's typically done on pups. The only reason three are done is because the pup is taken in much to early and moms passive immunity is still at work protecting the pup. The vaccine is blocked my this immunity. Therefore the vets keeps giving the vaccine banking on that at least one of the three shots will produce antibodies. Not good for the pup....This is from two reliable sources......

The maternal antibodies in a puppy younger than 16 weeks may interfere with the immune response. At the ages of 14 to 16 weeks of age, PAMA (passively acquired maternal antibody) should be at a level that will not block active immunization in most puppies (>95%) when a reliable product is used. It should be noted that giving vaccine more frequently than every 2 weeks will cause interference between the two vaccines and neither can be expected to be effective. This includes giving vaccines for different infections.
Vaccines should be spaced 2-4 weeks apart. Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. (American Animal Hospital Association)

"Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified live virus vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces immunity, which is good for the life of the pet (ie: canine distemper, parvo, feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the antigens of the second vaccine and there is little or no effect. The titers are not “boosted” nor are more memory cells induced. "J Dodds, DVM

Just remember it's your pet, not the vets, all the decisions are yours to make. The only vaccine that is required by law is the rabies, all the rest are your call.

Try and enjoy your pup and get reading, you'll feel better for it.......:)

Disappointed in the vet but not surprised -I was charged a phone consult bill of $42 for faxing in blood work from a specialist so yes it can get ridiculous at times and sometimes makes you wonder if they care about our dogs and our business and is very hurtful. I was in tears over the above after spending 25k plus in vet bills I had finally had enough and broke down and cried. Having a sick dog can be very costly depending on the area you live in and why it is good you are here to learn more as i think being educated will help alot.

I would look around for another vet as one this dog may not have died had vaccines been done seperately and then all the money you spent the vet cannot discuss what happened - very sad

On the liver shunt i think the puppy has to be 16 weeks before doing bile acids to be accurate so by then you will be very attached.

Bile acids testing is somewhat worthless before 20 weeks when the organs are totally developed.

This could have been a reaction made worse but a liver problem, but it also could have been one of those things that just happens sometimes iwth the lepto vaccine. I don't think there is any way to say at this point. Your pup may (or may not) have been perfectly healthy without this shot.

My girl reacted to it and required emergency treatment, but we found out later that she has a liver problem.

I would find a new vet. I'm all for vets making lots of money because they do work hard, but charging for this visit after everything you have been through there just set right with me at all.

I posted this on the other thread...
 

I posted this on the other thread but I will quote it here too:

There is so much wonderful information on the internet but I know it can become confusing. Your post is very helpful in helping to sort this out....:thumbup::thumbup:

I am going to steal this thread for a moment:

A reputable breeder will help educate the puppy buyer on the proper timing of shots and which shots. Even if the breeder is frightened to advise them at least give them a copy of the AAHA Guidelines

http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf

It really does amaze me why breeders don't have to do this....it should be required.

As I posted on the other thread, the breeder DID do this. She had a packet of informational papers on the subject, and the breeder went over each one and the puppy's health record with the buyer and explained which shots were needed. The buyer still took the puppy to the vet and did not ask about the vaccines the puppy was being given, and the vet gave her Corona. Even on the puppy's health record on the vaccine schedule was written in capital letters: PLEASE DO NOT GIVE LEPTO OR CORONA. The vet was given the record by the buyer and chose to ignore it.


ETA: After everything happened, the buyer did apologize to my friend (the breeder) and said that she knew it was her fault that she did not ask about the vaccines that were being given and should have listened to the breeder and trusted what she said. She did not expect to get another puppy but my friend was nice enough to give her one, but made sure that this time the buyer understood how important it is to speak up at the vet.

I have not seen the other post yet but as sad as the situation is I am glad your breeder friend did this. Does she know why the person who bought her puppy ignored this?

great post and we see dr dodds personally for all our blood work and titers as she is close to me and she is AWESOME very kind, loving, caring person who always helps me with my dogs and i trust her.

I agree the breeder i got dee dee from begged me not to do rabies vaccine as she had a pup die from it but i was scared not to do it so i trusted the vet and dd got the rabies and after that all heck broke loose as she has horrible allergies and it all started after 6 month vaccines so i wonder if this breeder knew dd may not have had a good immune system when she sold her to me as there was some inbreeding in her line the vet told me after reviewing her akc papers. Now dee dee is also hypothyroid which is auto immune disease so she is atopic dermatitis, mvd, LP 4, and hypothyroid. Oh yeah and the breeder is long gone moved away and no helping me with the thousands i have paid in vet bills on her trying to keep her comfortable. Of course when i contacted her at 6 months with all the issues she said she never had a pup with allergies before - she did tell me she was an accident so all the red flags were there but me being a new dog owner had NO CLUE what the heck i was doing. Ironically she is from the PENNY SAVER no PENNIES SAVED HERE.

Do you think inbreeding these dogs attributes to poor immune systems?

because sadly PEOPLE TRUST THEIR VETS ALL THE TIME and never question them as they think they KNOW EVERYTHING - sadly THEY DO NOT so why people need to educate themselves. Just because someone goes to school for a degree in something does not mean the know everything about that profession sorry. I have a degree in finance and real estate and do home loans - i know alot about home loans as I have been doing them for 20 years but does that mean i know everything about every aspect of finances like investments, etc -NO - after your education you become very good at what you deal with on a daily basis so if a vet does not further educate themselves on the latest studies, etc and they become lazy in their profession which many people do then they are not up on the latest things and they trust big pharmaceutical companies for their information which is what they are taught in vet school just like Hill's does their training on nutrition so they sell vet foods (not agains them as my dog is on one and it works) but many do not further educate in nutrition after school and they take one semester in college of nutrition.

yep as some are arrogant and will do what they want then blame the reaction on something else like the one not sure if this is the dog but on the TOOTH PASTE - seriously like we are that stupid to think toothpaste would cause a dog to foam at mouth and get so sick. Please - this happened to my parents dog they too their dog in for bordatella and vaccines and he got so sick after vomitting blood and diarrhea blood every where - my dad took him in and they started running tests on pancreatitis - I was furious as this dog has eaten the same food for 7 years and never had people food and same treat for years - NO WAY DID THIS DOG HAVE PANCREATITIS. I called and said what vaccine did you give that was different this time and it was the bordatella vaccine instead of intranasal and bordatella is viral and guess what he had A VIRAL INFECTION not pancreatitis and was on iv fluids and meds at vet for 5 days. They refused to think it was the vaccination that did it yet it happened within days of that vaccination but since he tolerated other vaccines for years I knew it was what was different. I say own up to it and don't blame it on other things which is what i see them doing all the time and it really upsets me.

Yes I do. We know with the Biewers they are having some problems with auto immune issues.

This same thing happened to me last february and I knew better but vet pressured me into giving my dog metacam for a leg injury when i asked for tramadol as my dog is on steroids and nsaid should NEVER be given to a dog on steroids but he argued with me and said my dog is in pain yada yada and i said give me the tramadol instead as she is on steroids and that is not safe. He told me to stop the steroids and i said then i am going to have a itching dog in pain so finally i caved in and said WHATEVER you are the PROFESSIONAL and he administered the drug on an empty stomach another NO NO with nsaids as they can perforate a human bowel much less a dog 7lbs on empty stomach. Now this is a very well known vet 20 years in practice all the latest and greatest as went to him ONLY because he had a digital xray machine and i went over she is mvd, on steroids for allergies, hypothyroid all the info and he still said it was safe.

Well my dog ended up at ims because she was vomitting, diarrhea for months had severe colitis, and was very sick and for a year has been a mess and just finally got her on track

jean dodds freaked out when i called her telling her he gave her metacam and said STOP THE METACAM NOW we just got her blood work normal - the ims told me WHAT THE HECK WAS HE THINKING along with a few other vets i know

sorry i have lost faith and why i do so much of my own learning now

i agree and it infuriates me as allergies are a total nightmare to deal with and no real cure and it is miserable and frustrating to watch a dog itch non-stop and only steroids will stop it and that has its own issues that leads to other illnesses.

I am so sorry about what happened to your puppy. :( I started reading old posts here and I am finding a lot of useful information. Thanks so much and best of luck with your new puppy!

Thanks Cindy......For the life of me I just don't understand why a lot of breeders don't do more research on vaccines and the effects it has on a pets immune system. The pup should be started out in life with the healthiest immune system possible. Yet it can be terribly comprimised by the overload of vaccines it has recieved before the pet owner has even taken the pet home.......

There was a study done at Perdue (just one of many done ) concerning vaccines that clearly showed the damage vaccines can do to pets. These effects can be far reaching but they will/may never be connected to the vaccines. Such as hypothyroidism, allergies, cancer, liver, kidney problems, seizures, etc.etc.etc.

This was the findings by Canine Health Concern......

There were over 4,000 dogs in the survey. We asked, if your dog is ill, when did he become ill in relation to the vaccine? We have been astounded by the results so far.

* 91% of Ataxia cases occurred within three months of a vaccine event
* 81% of dogs who had tumours at their vaccine sites, first developed the tumours within three months of being vaccinated
* 78.6% of dogs with encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) first developed the condition within three months of being vaccinated
* 73.1% of epileptic dogs first became epileptic within three months of being vaccinated
* 65.9% of dogs with colitis developed the condition within that first three months
* 64.9% of dogs with behavioural problems started to be a problem within three months of vaccination
* 61.5% of dogs developed liver failure within three months of being vaccinated.

The above figures were chosen at random from our findings to illustrate the principle to you: vaccines may be protecting our dogs against viral disease, but they are doing this at a very high price. If vaccination had no bearing on subsequent illness, only 25% of dogs should become ill in each three-month period.


Would anyone connect these illness to the vaccines they've had done? .....It's doubtful they would....

Boosters are another huge contributor for our pets health decline......They are not needed, they do more harm than good. But how many times do people take their pet in for them......With the approval of the vet I might ad.......I would consider this malpractice.......

"What are the ethical and legal implications if vets continue to insist their clients unnecessarily revaccinate their dogs annually or triennially with core MLV vaccines? These recommendations are not evidence-based. It is not ethical practice to urge clients to have medical interventions for their pets that are not needed and which may cause harm – Ronald Schultz calls this “an unacceptable medical procedure”.

Thanks for the information! Wonderful post. :thumbup::thumbup:

Still feel lost
 

I appreciate all the good advice given here. If only I had seen this site before last Wednesday. We've used this vet for over 12 years. I just blindly thought they knew best.

Now how to find a vet that will listen to me. I can't pay consultation fee after consultation fee. My breeder has always used the same vet I have. She just hasn't ever had any problems. I don't blame her at all for this. I think she just wasn't informed. She does have papers on her dogs and offered to give us papers for Sophie. She raises these dogs for love I think - not profit. She is very particular about who she sells to, requriring visits and fully knowing your home circumstances. She normally doesn't let the puppies come home till 14-16 weeks but since I'm a at home mom, she let me have her early. This is only her 2nd or 3rd litter and she said it probably would be the last. It is too hard on her to let the dogs go.

I feel like saying no vaccines, no vets but I know that is not the answer. We have to have the rabies by law and the fact that we are a foster home and it is requried for that. I am praying that this new pup is healthy. We get to pick him up tomorrow and though he won't replace Sophie I hope it will close the hole in my heart a little. At night I think over and over about what happened and that if I had only been informed it might have been prevented. I just never imagined anything like this could have happened. She was the cutest, liveliest thing. So playful even with our big 38 pound dog. She would hang on his tail as he walked around (he didn't mind). It is just hard to believe that all the life and energy could be gone in 4 days.

I pray your new little boy is healthy and that he will help your heart mend.

I sympathize with your concerns about finding a good vet. We are going to go to a new one soon, one that was recommended by a local breeder/YT member.

As several people noted above, the best thing you can do is educate yourself, arm yourself with info so that you aren't relying solely on the vet. Now you have the benefit of YorkieTalk and the knowledge and experience of lots of people.

Even if you had found YT before, things still happen. :(
It was probably the lepto, but it could have been one of the other ones.
Sometimes, even though this vaccine doesn't agree with Yorkies, it may need to be given anyway (depending on your area and the dog's lifestyle). If lepto absolutely needss to be given, it should be done after 16 weeks.

Sometimes even great vets give it without thinking. They just don't understand this breed...

It sounds like you are still very unsure about vet care (as most of us would be in this case). Can we answer any questions for you? There is a thread in the YT Library about things to look for in a vet office.

I completely understand your apprehension now concerning going to the vets......The vet can make recommendations concerning treatment and care of your pup, ultimately it is your decision, if it isn't an emergency you could always decline and go home and research.....:)

.......You can always call the vets office instead of going in and ask if they do just the core vaccines (distemper, parvo, and rabies) and their position on boosters.........You could also try a holistic vet, here is a list of some possibilities ....

AHVMA - American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association

I also agree with Ann, (Wylie's Mom), I don't do corona, bordatella, lepto, giardia, or lymes. Here are a couple of experts views on lepto......

Dr Ron Schultz (the world’s foremost independent authority on canine vaccines) hates to see them in with anything else and, in puppies, advises that they are completely finished with the viral inoculations before getting a vaccine against Lepto, which he neither recommends nor advocates - even in Lepto endemic areas.
“I have seen older dogs go into kidney failure within two days of receiving a Lepto vaccine.”



In the Canine Health Concern vaccine survey, 100% of dogs with leptospirosis contracted it just after being vaccinated against it. Leptospirosis, of course, attacks the kidneys – and the puppy had severe kidney damage.

Good luck and I wish you and your new pup well....

agree and lepto nor bordatella covers all strains of it anyway and kennel cough is easy to treat if they get it so many vet techs on groups say they just treat it if they get it