Cosequin and LP
 

After much searching I've determined it's really hard to do a thorough search on LP on YT due to it being too short and the full term, luxating patella not being used frequently. So I'm sorry in advance for starting a thread that I'm sure has been covered a million times.

Gracie has grade 2 lp in both legs and Sugar was just diagnosed with grade 3 in both. Neither have any symptoms at all with the exceptions of Gracie favoring a leg for a few seconds and that has probably happened 2 or 3 times in her whole life, and one time Sugar got up to run and his legs went out for a split second. At the time I wrote it off to him attempting a full run straight from a deep sleep to join the other dogs barking.

I am so, soooo hesitant to go through with LP surgery when there does not seem to be any pain at all. Sugar, being a 3 would be the first consideration of the 2. He has never been able to jump up or off of furniture so there isn't any danger of him injuring it further by jumping and truthfully, he really isn't a very active dog at all. He doesn't even join in to play with Gracie and Spike but just likes to sit back and watch, wag his tail like crazy and give a little bark here and there to cheer it on.

So at this point I'm going to start cosequin for all three of them. I am actually furious that my vet has never mentioned it and I've left a message for him to call me to see why. For those of you with experience in this; what can I expect and how will I know if it's doing anything? With grade 3 LP, is the most I can hope for is to hold off arthritis? Will it possibly keep Gracie from progressing to stage 3? She's been at 2 for most of her life and I'm guessing in her case it was hereditary and could easily stay a 2. I believe Sugar's is from injury as he has had 2 falls (neither were with me but of course that's beside the point).

I really don't want to put him through surgery unless it's 100% necessary but then I worry if I make the wrong decision, will he end up paying for it later?

It does seem a bit odd that your vet didn't say anything about glucosamine.
I'd put both of them on Cosequin and strongly consider talking to an ortho surgeon about Sugar. Grade 3's and 4's generally do require surgery.

They may have some stomach upset on the Cosequin but most do just fine.
We use the capsules here and break them open on food.

As far as I know, it cannot reverse the damage and things may or may not get worse. It should help strengthen the joint though.

Is it a good idea to have all of these little Yorkies on Cosequin as sort of a preventative and to strengthen the joints?

I wonder if you have gotten a second opinion from another vet?

I too think your vet should of suggested the supplement earlier.

Sorry you and your babies have to go through all of this.

Sending you prayers!

Thanks for the responses. Trust me, I am very annoyed with my vet right now and also myself for not finding out on my own. Not feeling like a very good mommy right now:( I'm usually a research fanatic, I can't believe I let this slide.

I haven't gotten a second opinion because I just found out about the grade 3 and up until then I was under the impression it was a grade 1. During the same visit he was concerned about a potential, complicated dental surgery for Sugar which was dealt with today (no surgery this time- yay). He's always been very clear with me that Gracie had grade 2 but always just called Sugar's "mild". I tried to get him to clear that up on the phone today but he just kept reiterating that up until this last visit, Sugar's records showed grade 2. Fine, but why was he calling it mild but calling Gracie's what it was- grade 2? When I talked to him today it was to let me know how Sugar did with his dental and we just briefly discussed the LP. I read about the cosequin after that and have left a message for him to call me again.

I would definitely get a second opinion before going through with surgery but it probably is a good idea to get one to help me make my decision. Normally I trust my vet completely- he is really well known as being an excellent vet in our area and I've always felt nothing but complete confidence in him, but my faith is a bit shaken given that he didn't suggest cosequin and the confusion over the LP. He did give me a thorough explanation of the different grades and showed me diagrams to illustrate his explanation so I feel fairly confident that he is correct with his diagnosis.

Luxating patellas themselves don't cause pain, the arthritis they cause is what becomes so painful. Please get them evaluated by an orthopedic vet. People don't realize how much stress luxating patellas put on the other joints. We have a member on another forum whose Maltese has become severely bow legged from LP's. Her vet never suggested surgery so she never got a second opinion. This poor guy is only five years old, but has painful and crippling arthritis that he will now have to live with for the rest of his life because it is too late for surgery now. If surgery is recommended, the sooner you have it done, the better chance your Yorkie will have a pain free life.

This was written by a vet on another forum I belong to:

Luxating Patellas

Patellas can be diagnosed at a very young age, toy breeds are at high incidence of LP. some LP can be made from a trauma and won't be present at the initial exam. i dont think that a dog with LP should be bred, but it doesnt mean that 2 normal dogs can't produce a pup with LP. i check the knees at a first pup visit but that isn't to say that every vet does. some don't look unless there is an issue. and u can grade patellas with out an xray:

Medial patellar luxations are graded to assess severity.

Grade I: The kneecap can be moved out of place manually but will fall back into its natural position once the manipulator lets go.

Grade 2: Same thing except that the kneecap does not move back to its normal position when the manipulator lets go. These dogs are likely to progress to arthritis development and should be considered for surgery to prevent conformational damage. There is some controversy over whether grade 2 dogs should have surgery.

Grade 3: The patella is out of place all the time but can be manipulated back into its normal position manually (though it will not stay there).

Grade 4: The patella is not only out of place all the time but cannot even be manipulated back into place by hand. Such a dog has extreme difficulty extending his knees and walks with his knees bent virtually all the time.

It is not a good thing to have one's knee cap out of place; the entire weight-bearing stress of the rear leg is altered which, in time, leads to changes in the hips, long bones, and ultimately arthritis. How severe the changes are depends on how severe the luxation is (i.e., the grade as described above) and how long that degree of luxation has been going on. In time, the legs will actually turn inward, making the dog "knock-kneed." The luxation is not considered a painful condition but after enough time and conformational change, arthritis sets in, which is indeed painful.

Dogs with Grade I luxations do not require surgical repair.

Grade 2 dogs may benefit from surgery and most often the owner is called upon to judge how big a problem the lameness is.

Dogs with Grade 3 or 4 disease definitely should have surgery.

Blaming yourself for not researching isn't going to do any good now, so try to let it go. :) Sometimes vets just don't remember to mention things for whatever reason. I have read about a lot of people asking their vets about glucosamine after the diagnosis and the vet agrees but doesn't bring it up initially. If you are happy with your vet otherwise, I think I'd let this one slide and tell him that you will be using Cosequin...

Thank you Ladymom!:) I have been reading up on LP quite a bit but didn't know that the pain was caused solely from arthritis caused by LP. I think I'm going to ask my vet for a referral to University of FL and get this settled once and for all.

My vet is recommending surgery and I was 99.9% sure after his diagnosis at our last exam that that would be what we would do. What you posted is what my vet said and everything I've read online- that grade 3 and 4 require surgery, end of story. Then I poked around YT a bit and read several threads saying that is wasn't always the case. Wishful thinking I guess. It's just so hard to think about such a difficult surgery when he seems perfectly fine and happy.:( He's laying next to me now, sleeping and occasionally giving a little whine from his dental today. It's killing me and that is so minor compared to LP surgery. This sucks!

I am glad you are going to take him to U of Florida. He will get great care there.

Thanks Crystal. I did read up on LP when Gracie was first diagnosed but don't remember reading about supplements for it. Her's has stayed exactly the same since she was first diagnosed around a year old (now going on 6yrs) and from what I've read, often times if its genetic (which I believe to be the case with her) that it might not progress any further. I do watch her weight and her jumping and she is the only one of our 3 who I take on walks regularly so I thought I had her covered. I wasn't particularly overly concerned with Sugar, assuming it was grade 1. Now it kills me wondering if I had had him on glucosamine if it wouldn't have gotten to this point.

Cosequin will help with arthritic changes from luxating patellas, but won't keep them from getting worse. LP's are a structural problem. The kneecap groove isn't deep enough so the kneecap slips in and out. They get worse from the wear and tear from jumping on and off furniture, etc. So don't beat yourself up. ;)

Thank you- that actually makes me feel a lot better. I'm lucky that Sugar has never been able to jump on or off of furniture so I don't have that to worry about that aggravating it at least.

definitely let us know if you go to UF for the LP, my riley has grade 2 LP and i give him cosequin hopefully it doesn't get worse.. i actually should just go to UF and see myself haha i live in gville!

i live in gainesville to ... my lola have lp grade 1. my question is :what
grade should i start Cosequin? what is Cosequin ? where can get it?
let us know what uf tell you. i hope your baby do will.

i google cosequin and find its . what you think?
www.springtimeinc.com/product/94/2

Having just gone thru lp surgery with Hot Rod, I am glad I did it. Now that being said, I was a wreck during and right after it. :rolleyes: He went from grade 1 to a 3 in what seemed like overnight. His annual checkup was in November and was not showing any signs of it getting worse. All of a sudden he would not want to walk very far. He would just stop and stand there looking at me or just sit down. I was litterally pulling on him to walk. He wound up having a uti that I initially took him in for and while I was there talked with my vet about that and she took xrays and immediately referred us to an ortho surgeon.

I learned later that the surgeons office keeps appts open for potential surgeries as soon as the next day for new cases. We had our appt on a Mon and was scheduled for surgery the very next day so I didn't have much time to freak out. His lp caused his little leg to bow. His ligament was on the side of the knee cap and the groove needed to be deepened.

His surgery was the end of March and he's gotten the all clear. Now he is still picks his leg up every once in a while (esp. when he gets going running on the grass) but he doesn't have any limp what so ever. He does walk/sprint sideways though, lol. And he does get tired so I wind up picking him up. Stairs seemed to be hard on him so we didn't let him go up and down at first; we've be letting him do it more and more now. Our surgeon told us to keep him still for 6 weeks :eek: and the largest area he should be in is a 3' x 3'.
So I am sure that he's a little weak in that leg. He's getting stronger and better each day. We'd always done a bit of walking prior to surgery, probably a total of 1 1/2 miles throughout the day. I can't wait until we get back to that, we both enjoyed our walks tremendously.

Our surgeon told us that he would not have arthritis which I was really worred about. He also said that I should not be surprised it it takes up to 2 months before getting back to normal. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, in my case I am very glad that I did it...but I'm also on the other side of it now. ;)

It can benefit dogs with any grade of LP.
Ellie is a grade 1 or 2 in her left knee and she is on it.

Oh my goodness, I didn't even know Hot Rod had the surgery!:eek: I haven't been on much and just pop onto a couple of the subforums and I have missed so much. I am so glad to hear he is doing good. It sounds like it was 1 leg? How long was there pain? Sending retroactive hugs to you both- so sorry I wasn't around when you were going through it.

I get Lady's Cosequin at Entirely Pets:

Cosequin Regular Strength (90 capsules)

Awww, no worries. :) It was just 1 leg. The surgeon said that he thinks at this point in time the other leg is fine and feels that it won't get any worse. But of course time will tell. I really can't say how long he had pain as I really didn't think it was a knee issue. We take them out separately in the mornings and Maggie would always jump him when he came in (lol) so I just attributed any symptoms to that. I really only noticed it on our walks. He loves our walks and he just didn't want to go, he would literally just stop in his tracks sometimes just standing there or sit down. Honestly, if another YT member hadn't said something to me about the possible uti problem I probably would not have gone to the vet at that point. Hot Rod was still very much active, running, jumping and playing with Maggie so I really had not idea something was wrong. :eek:

The xrays my vet took were kinda weird and showed his leg was bowed so she wasn't sure if it was a hip issue or knee problem so that is why she referred us right away. Fortunately the surgeon said his hip is absolutely fine. "whew"

Coincidentally, the surgeon (board ceritified) I went to happens to be 2 of my neighbors dogs surgeon. They have sister New Foundlands. One of them has had both ACL's (?) operated on the other dog will be going through her second knee surgery in about 3/4 weeks. She is recuperating from her first now. And then I found out that my other neighbors aunt had this surgeon for her poodle. So I was very happy with knowing people who used him and were very happy with him. He also told me that he has a little yorkie; he has special needs. :) all in all, I really liked him and as I said, I am very glad I did it and that it's behind us now. I hope the best for you and Sugar whatever you should decide. If you need anything, just pm me. Stedmansmommy-little Tatum and Amandawash's Ranger and us had surgeries all within a week of each. It was like comparing notes and progression. lol. They are all on the mends as well. :D

Thank you soooo much!:) I'm just learning about all of the LP surgery babies here from searching it. How long was he in pain after the surgery? I think that's what scares me the most. I practically made myself sick last night over Sugar's post dental pain. I'm still waiting on my vet to return my call.

Cost of LP surgery...
 

I know it shouldn't matter because these babies are so precious but does anyone know how expensive this surgery is? My vet recommends it for my Yorkie and I have no money. And there is no such thing as a payment plan. They want the money up front. I can't bear the thought of London developing arthritis and I'm going to start Glucosamine right away. But I can't believe that she's 5 and my vet never mentioned possible Luxating Patella ever!!!!! And when I took her there today the vet that was filling in didn't give me a grade of any kind. In fact she barely even checked her well. Now that I think about it I'm so mad. Her front leg has been looking bowed to me lately and she's been having trouble climbing her little stairs. And then all of a sudden 2 days ago she is running around on only 3 legs. You would think that in all the times she's been to the vet that they might have picked up on it or at least mentioned the possibility sooner. I'm hoping if she loses weight and takes the Glucosamine it will buy us enough time until we can afford the surgery. But this vet today said she would probably need it on all four legs. Is this normal? She is only holding one off the floor. I know this post is too long and I'm sorry. But my dogs are my babies and so far I've been lucky with the medical problems.

Did you get a second opinion, these vets are also out to make a living. Surgery cost depends on your geographical area. But, it's not cheap. The Cosequin will help. Now the LP on all 4 legs sounds a little wierd to me. I've never heard of LP afflicting the front legs, can it happen, I'm not sure.

Thank you for the quick reply. I've decided to call my vets office tomorrow to speak to my main vet. After researching this problem here I realize that I basically wasted a visit today. I took the advice on one of the threads and cupped Londons' rear quarter while gently pushing inward and we heard a pop which I also felt and now she is bearing weight on the leg. And the vet I saw today couldn't do that? I'm not happy. I will buy some Glucosamine today and put London on a diet and start saving money for surgery but hopefully we will not need it. This forum is priceless and you are all angels to me.

If surgery is warrented, it should be done by an Othepedic Surgeon. Did the vet tell you what grade level LP?

Weight Management and jumping to a minimum will keep the knees from popping out.

I know that front knees can be loose on young dogs, it takes a bit of time for everything to solidify.

My daughters yorkie has LP due to injury. Vet gave him PhyCox-JS.
Has anyone heard of this?
I asked vet about cosequin and she said that this was better.

It's interesting to see you mentioned glucosamine. I mentioned glucosamine to my vet thinking it would help Bella because she is a grade 2 lp. My vet said that glucosamine builds cartlidge, and the problem with lp is the canal for the cartlidge is not big enough so building cartledge would exaserbate the problem. In lp sugery what they are doing is digging out the canal to make it larger for the tendons. Bella's lp actually improved after she built muscle mass around her hips and knees. She's always run like a jack rabbit, and never been bothered by the lp at all. Just my vet's perspective. Made sense to me.