Raw
 

I hope I'm not bogarting this discussion here but I'd love to add a few points;
There are quite a few people who have been feeding prey model raw for more than 15 years (or just below that in some cases). In fact, my own family fed their dogs this way before kibble was invented. I have heard of the family Great Dane that lived to be 14! Back then, dogs weren't vaccinated to death and ate foods that didn't come in fancy hipster designer bags, loaded with additives, preservatives, "vitamins" other things that advertisement and brain washed vets tell us is healthy for our dogs! I'm not aware of any "official" studies on raw food feeding and as long as there's big money to be made by selling kibble, supplements and other junk there won't be any. There was a cat study on raw vs. kibble. (I need to look for that article again..... "Scientifically" formulated pellets cannot be better than the food canines evolved to eat. The only thing kibble companies studied and proven was that a dog could "survive" on kibble, nothing more. Supplements are dangerous territory. They're not only chock full of things a dog can't even properly utilize or even needs, but could be fatal! Feeding a dog does not need complicated formulations! Mother Nature knows what a carnivore needs to eat, not some person in a lab coat, trying to get rich by selling products!

I'm a prey model feeder and because my own dog was dying, I went out to search for answers. I used to buy crappy kibble, "premium" kibble, home cooked and started with raw on NV nuggets. I, too purchased expensive supplements, powders and tinctures. I don't even want to think about all of the money I wasted, not to mention the gamble that I took with my beloved dog's life! 10+ years of Vets, Specialists etc and my dog was getting worse! Even if a dog seemingly appears to be normal on kibble; when choosing to feed a diet that is not species appropriate, one will inevitably invite health/behavior problems! Here's an interesting link to a comment you made about longevity of carnivores in the wild;
Myths About Raw: Does the diet of wolves shorten their

Here's a website full of info for the raw novice;
Jane Anderson's Raw Learning Site

and here's a thread on YT about prey model;
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...odel-diet.html

I hope any of this was informative! :)





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The idea of feeding raw does make perfect sense. I still have this hang-up about the longevity thing though. I've seen where some have advocated doing all 3 (commercial, cooked and raw) on a rotating basis. I'm currently doing the commercial and the cooked food. I've gone to the supermarket and tried to get meaty bones but it seems like, these days, they're getting their meats pretty much ready to go except for the final cut so there just isn't a lot available except for chicken and turkey necks. So you can't just go and ask for 'dog bones' like we did in the past. The commercial raw seems a bit pricey for me; I try to keep my costs at around a dollar a pound. Thankfully, there are some quality kibbles out there; it's just difficult wading through all the hype and marketing gimmicks. I don't mind spending a bit more if the food is really good but it does take some doing to sort through all the claims. I also agree with you about the over-vaccination of dogs. I've seen studies that show the average life expectancy of dogs is going down, not up. This correlates with the wider use of vaccines and heartworm and flea preventatives, which, though some call them medicines, are really pesticides. I'm now looking into a program of using heartworm nosodes along with herbal parasite control. I got my dogs off flea preventatives about a year ago and now treat the yard, not the dog. Being a breeder, I'm very concerned about the build-up of toxins in my breeding dogs and the negative effects of this on the puppies they produce. the marketers of many of these products would have us believe that you must do all these preventative things for the HEALTH of your dog when many of these products have known risks to them. In short, I'm trying a more holistic approach in the care of my dogs. The one thing about this approach is that you have to really do your research before getting started. To me, though, it's the only thing that makes sense since so many traditional commercial products have so many negative consequences. I'm the only one that cries if something happens to my babies so I have to be the one that makes sure they're getting the best I can give them. As you can see, I could go on about this all day, too :D .

Thanks for the links, RawfedYorkieLuv. I was on the posting page and got called away so didn't see your post before my last one. I'll definitely check out the links later this evening (I'm getting called to dinner). This thing with the kibble I'm now using has gotten me re-thinking how I feed my crew all over again and I really appreciate your input. :aimeeyork :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :)

Goodness!!! r u a chemist or nutritionist or something?? u no so much about food... i wish i was like that. I know who im going to next time i have a question about food.. im so glad i found this site. :)

You're most certainly welcome! Weeding through all of the perpetrated BS we are undoubtedly being fed (the dog owners with the wallets) is a task in itself!
These days, the only person that makes money off of my way of feeding is my butcher and he doesn't know I'm feeding his meat to my dogs!

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LOL! Nope, just a dork who loved science in college, spends way too much time reading about food and is obsessed with yorkies. In other words: LOSER! :D :D :D

Hmmm....let's see. Well, you already know I'm not trying to sell ya on it, but let's see about this longevity thing for the sake of discussion. What I come up with is: What about the "state of the meat" makes you think it affects a dog's longevity?

[assuming you already read they don't get things from raw meat similar to what humans might get] :)

How was dinner? :D

Well, dinner was great (breaded pork chops covered with cheese and red potatoes) :). I've read a bit from the links RawfedYorkieLuv provided (it's a lot to digest :D) and checked out some commercial raw food products.Now, how can I answer your question about meat without looking like an idiot? (Good phrasing BTW). In a nutshell, here's my concern. While yes, wolves have survived for many, many years on a raw diet as evidenced by the fact that they're still here. But biological sustainability and longevity are two different things. All a wolf (or any species) has to do is survive is to live long enough to reproduce, not necessarily to die of old age. I'm sure their diet in the wild isn't killing them but is it promoting a long life? So, that's basically it as for my questions about raw. Looking at both types of raw feeding, the prey model makes more sense in a way as it more closely resembles the wild diet. I'm not against it and have attempted to find a source of meaty bones and such in my area but have had no luck; we just don't have any real butcher shops here anymore where you can get things like that. That leaves me with either raw medallions or basically just chicken and turkey necks. I do think I'll go out tomorrow and get some chicken necks and see how my pack takes to them. As I said before, the idea of raw makes sense and I do understand about the diets of wolves and such as I had wolf hybrids for over 20 years. I lost my last w/h girl in 2006 at the age of 15 and have researched wolves a bit during the time I had them with me (I can't say owned because you never OWN a wolf dog as you would a domestic animal). Even though they descended from wolves, I just don't see my Yorkies as the same type creature as a wolf so I never considered raw feeding a Yorkie the same as I would a wolf. I did raw feed my wolf dogs occasionally but their main diet was kibble and canned. Pagan lived to be 13 and Toy made it to 15. I never vaccinated them beyond their puppy shots, never gave them flea or heartworm preventatives and neither one ever had heartworms or a flea problem. As i said before, I think these things are more harmful to our dogs than the quality of their food. The one thing that raw has over commercial food is the dental benefits of chewing meaty bones. This is probably the one thing that makes me want to try raw, at least on a rotating basis.

Why do domesticated dogs live longer than their wild counterparts?
 

;)Woogie Man,
I highly recommend that you read the following pages in their entirety as it's tons of reading but none the less, answers every point you brought up!
Rebuttal to Second Chance Ranch

I can't even tell you the countless hours I have spent reading about this stuff but it was so worth it!

As far as you saying about finding a meat source in your town; You do have supermarkets, don't you? I'm not sure what you have there but here in AZ I purchase my prey model supplies at common supermarket chains like Food City, Frys, El Super..... I find incredible deals at this one Ethnic grocery store called Phoenix Ranch Market. The butcher there knows that he'll see me every Thursday when they have special mark downs as I'm the one asking for kidneys, hearts, chicken feet and other "crazy" stuff. Turkey and pork necks are not the only staples in a prey model diet, in fact meatier pieces are much more preferred. I don't know how many dogs you're feeding or what their sizes are, but I can appreciate concerns over costs for this diet. I feed three yorkies for around $15 per month. I stick with things at or under $1 per pound with lamb being more expensive and considered a treat. There are also many local purchasing co-op's forming for that reason. Like minded feeders band together to place a deeply discounted bulk order. I'm a member of several raw discussion groups on yahoo and you could benefit from checking those out;

the first one is like craigslist for raw feeders
CarnivoreFeed-Supplier : Carnivore feeders and feed suppliers

This one is the main support/discussion group on prey model raw feeding
rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!

Take a look around, maybe you can even find a co-op in your city!

Oh, and here's one just because it's fun to view the feasting pictures and to get some "menu" ideas for the critters. Btw. one of my female yorkies only weighs 1 1/2 pounds at 9 months old and she's 100% carnivore, believe me, lol.

Raw Feeding Recipes

Have fun with this and don't stress! It's just feeding dogs, not rocket science like "they" would like us to believe! lol :rolleyes: :p ;)





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What informative reading! I too have been researching different brands of food and have just started looking into raw feeding. Thanks to all of you for sharing this great info!

RawfedYorkieLuv....thanks for those last links. I haven't read all of it but did get through most of it. Some of the info I had seen before but there was a lot of new stuff, too. I see now that I had the wrong idea about what 'meaty bones' were. No wonder I couldn't find any LOL. Now I know where to start at least. The leg quarters and ribs I can get anywhere so that's what I'll start with. I don't think I'll try to go with this for a main diet but will see how it goes. I hope they like it enough to at least get some dental benefit from it. Would you give a 3 pounder a whole leg quarter or just the leg? Would just the leg be a big enough piece to get the chewing action going? Seems like it would for one that small. I'm sure I'll have more questions later but just wanted to know this to start with. Thanks again. :aimeeyork :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :)

ROFL a whole leg quarter for a 3 pounder???? Not even my 10 pounder can handle that assuming we're talking about pieces from rather large chickens... If he did, he would not want to eat for two days after that! I'm sorry, woogie man, I'm not laughing at you but I'm imagining your 3 pounder with a piece of meat pretty much her own size, lol. The guideline is to feed 2-3% of the dog's ideal adult weight per day and I think your 3 pounder could do half of a chicken drumstick at one sitting, if that much! My 1 1/2 pound tiny girl gets chicken wings and things about that size! Get a meat cleaver if you don't already have one. Always aim for pieces bigger that the dog's mouth and as big as the dog's head for serious gulpers. Whatever the dog doesn't finish, pick up and offer at next meal. Some dogs like to chomp on slightly frozen meaty bones and others prefer something that has been sitting out for a while (one of my females likes that "tart" flavor) she also like to "bury" her meat and come back to it later but since I feed indoors I won't let that happen, lol.
As a side note; many dogs will refuse kibble once they get a taste of real food. Some who feed a combination of kibble and prey model report no problems with their dogs doing it this way but I've also heard of serious stomach upsets. Wait 12 hours in between kibble and raw just in case, at least until you have a better overview of how each dog handles it.
Feel free to bring on the questions! Can't wait to hear how it goes for ya! ;)




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Yep, prey model is superior to pre-made, by far :). I'm so glad to read you're going to give some RMBs (raw meaty bones) a try for teeth, cool!

Btw, I love wolf hybrids. An old roommate of mine (in Colorado) used to have one and she was the coolest dog. Love that name - Pagan :).

Happy to provide you with a good laugh, Nadia :) . I didn't figure a 3 pounder could EAT a whole leg quarter, just if that's how big I should feed. I saw on the link you posted that you should feed about as big as their head to promote chewing and prevent gulping it down. Shoot, they were advising whole carcasses, complete with links on getting whole rabbits and such. Guess it was kind of a funny question, though :D. Cool to hear that you've had the pleasure to be around a w/h, Ann. Pagan was 3/4 Eastern Timberwolf, 1/4 German Shepherd. He was a magnificent animal. Toy was his daughter and was 3/8 Wolf, 5/8 Shepherd. Funny thing about genetics and mixes. Toy got all the wolf genes in spite of the numbers. She was a virtual clone of her grandmother, who was pure wolf. We named her Toy because she was the runt of the litter (85pounds). Hard to believe I went from that breed to being a Yorkie nut...talk about extremes. But then again, my Yorkies THINK they're a bigger dog than Pagan or Toy :D.

Oh yeah, I laughed! Thanks for that! I had a similar laugh when a newbie on my prey model discussion list asked if she could/should feed her 250 pound St. Bernard pork necks. We all had a nice chuckle and urged her to buy whole turkeys and things of that size.
Btw. one of my dogs is named "Toy"!!! :D

I don't have experience with hybrids but I just wanted to say that I love GSD's and would have one if it weren't for my yorkies. One saved my life once and I will never forget that beautiful dog and what he did for me! His name was "Thunder", he was huge (German lines), his markings were perfection and the smartest dog I have ever come across! What do you breed and how many dogs are you feeding if you don't mind me asking!