high protein kiddble against pre-made raw
 

so i used to feed morgan NV raw. she loved it. however it didn't do anything for her like it does for others. her mouth still stank, her teeth didn't get any whiter and her tear stains were still bad. and nothing can help her poofy coat.

so i did an experiment and put her back on kibble. She is eating solid gold wee bits right now which she likes more then other kibble i had her on pre-raw food. I like the convenience of kibble but hate the poop size and pick up.

so i went to a holistic pet store and asked if they have any kibble that will provide almost the said poop results as raw. They told me to try Evo. I told them that when morgan was younger i had tried her on this and a few mornings out of the week she would vomit bile. So i stopped feeding it. It could have been that she was too young to eat it though so i took a sample and tried it out. things seemed to be going well on day and two, but then on morning three she vomited bile, which she hasn't done in a while. So i figured it was the EVO and stopped mixing it with her solid gold.

EVO red meat has 42% protein.
NV venison has says it has 13% protein.

I never looked at this before but just assumed the raw would be higher in protein. Its not. In fact it has less protein then solid gold kibble she's eating now.

so maybe i'm missing something. i have been a little off lately. Maybe someone can explain this to me. How is it that some people who are against raw say its too high in protein when in fact its not? is it just the possible bacteria that worries people then?

wow i just noticed i can't spell LOL kiddble? suppose to say kibble :rolleyes:

this is a great question and i would love the know the answer as well :)

mine love NV :D

ok, where are all the people that like to debate this subject??? LOL

i want to hear what you guys have to say on both sides

This is sooo off topic but...
kalina82 is your girls hair shaved? under the clothes? Im trying to get a new hair do for my Lana and was wondering how your girls cut.

LOL i'll pm you

Thanks for the explaination:D
Ive done the same thing, we did RAW for a few months then the EVO and I too had to quit the EVO since it made them throw up. I dont understand the protien thing either, we ended up on DVP potato and duck and so far so good. Where is everyone?

hopefully everyone's getting ready for Easter tomorrow and not ignoring me :p

Great thread, can't wait to hear some answers!

You need to take into account the amount of moisture in the raw (considering there's NONE in dry).

NV's Venison Formula (according to their website) has a max moisture content of 68% and min protein content of 13%.

Start with 100%, subtract out the moisture content.
100-68 = 32% (which is the dry content matter)
Take that 13% protein, divided by the 32% dry content and you get .41 or 41%

So really they're pretty close to each other.

But you also need to consider the quality of the protein source. Real meat is more easily digested than the processed meats found in kibble. It's likely that more of the raw protein was digested than that in the kibble.

Have you had her tear ducts flushed? I've seen them get plugged enough times.... Or maybe she doesn't have any! I met a dog once that actually didn't have tear ducts so he was always tearing/staining because his tears didn't drain properly.

Did you try adding fish oil to the raw? I've found it helps tremendously with skin/coat. One of my long haired cats doesn't mat since I've started her on it and all of them shed markedly less.

NV raw medallions aren't enough to help her teeth. Once tartar is formed it needs to be physically removed and the soft texture of the raw won't do that. You need bones for that (or a dental cleaning). My kids love chicken necks. There's a lot of bone on 'em and they're forced to chew and crunch on them, which scrapes their teeth in the process.


Even if you didn't visibly see the benefits of raw, they're still there..... I could go on and on, but since you're asking about the protein and not really the benefits and for the sake of keeping the thread on topic, I won't. :D

Thanks Kelly for the breakdown of moisture and protein. When i use that formula for the evo it comes out to .45 so it is really close in protein matter.

so more protein in the raw was processed in the raw making less waste, but since its harder to process the protein in the kibble more is wasted hence the larger poops that don't go away even tho solid gold is considered a great kibble.

what i'm having trouble with i guess is that while i like feeding raw for some of the results it produces i'm still worried that since its "new" it may cause worse results in the end. kibble is what we all grew up with. all of us have seen dogs on kibble live very very long lives. The doc i work with has a 13 year old english mastiff (pretty old for a large breed dog) and that dog used to live on gaines burgers.

i want to fed raw but i feel like what if something bad happens years down the road from now and its linked back to the raw diet. I would be the only one to blame for whatever happens to my dog. I'd feel horrible because everyone else around me had been telling me that i shouldn't feed raw and i was making her sick.

i wish there were scientific articles or peer reviews journals that had information about a raw diet. there are no vets around here that i've met that approve of the raw diet. maybe if i spoke to one i'd feel differently. i don't know. scientific based information about the benefits of a raw diet would be comforting. is there something like that or is everything based on people's own experiences.

I've read about it here and of the yahoo group. so many people feed it, how can it be wrong or bad? i don't know.

as for your questions about Morgan, her tear ducts are clogged and their too small to flush. i've tried. She is on fish oil and vit E. her coat i think just is what it is. tho poofy, its very soft and people love it.

i had given her chicken necks in the past and she just doesn't get it. she's not a big chewer and just wouldn't try long enough to eat the neck. if she can't get it within a few minutes she gives up. lazy girl :rolleyes: i tried holding it for her and smashing it up a little for make it easier to eat but it still didn't work.

i was mainly interested in the protein before because i was so confused as to why the protein of the raw food was so much less then the evo kibble and even the solid gold that she mainly eats.

thanks again. would love to hear from other people as well.

Check the AHVMA (American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association) for holistic vets in your area. They're more likely to have info on raw diets (and nutrition in general) than any traditional vets out there..... http://www.ahvma.org/

I did a search for NJ vets, there's actually a nice list. Hopefully one is in your area, or at least close enough to make an afternoon road trip to visit.

thank you so much. i was actually just doing a google search for this. i was on the avma site and couldn't find what i was looking for.

Thank you very much for that link! I fed raw and my vet was skeptical of it.. Theres a vet on that list 30 minutes away from me.. I'm going to give her a call up and chit chat the raw thing.. If I could get my girls on it, I think I'm going to switch... I had my American Bulldog/Pitbull on it and it did wonders...

I've heard the taste of the wild was so good too..Well, my big dogs are doing great on it and seem to really like it..the 4 little ones ended up with diarrhea all day everyday, so hurried and took them off of it..they're now back on nutro ultra, and it tends to make them poop less and it's smaller also, and they really like it...good luck

Kelly already explained that part to you, so I won't revisit that part. :) The proteins are pretty comparable. I DID want to mention that EVO, in particular, is oddly higher in fat than its comparable kibbles - so I've been noticing quite a bit that some dogs seem to get nauseous from it (and, higher fat would also explain more voluminous poos, as well). Maybe try regular Innova and/or a regular fat, but high protein kibble - and you might see less nauseousness.

As for the stuff with raw - kibble has only been around since the 1940s. Before that, our dogs were given real food. Once kibble was introduced (and all the by products and fillers - aka, allergens) - that's when we also saw dog's (and cat's) health problems skyrocket. Of course, these problems also sort of coincided w/ all of the over vaccination that started to occur as well. So, both of these things contributed to a real downward spiral in pets' health, in my estimation.

When I look at what my dogs are getting, in terms of quality, from NV right now - I know in my gut they are getting superior, premium food. I know their digestion is occurring as intended (hard, small - thereby, emptying anal glands, if needed) - not smelly or large. I *feel* more confident about their health than ever before.

I'm rambling...your original question is "why are others against raw, if not for higher protein?" - I suppose it could be the bacteria. But, I think we all know that's only a factor for immuno-compromised dogs - so, I don't know. Some people want proof, as in "peer reviewed journal articles" - EVEN though, there is no real proof that what they're now feeding is good (but, lots of proof, in my mind, that it is bad). Guess I can't answer your question, lol!

thank you for your input Wylie's Mom, i appreciate it. I like to get lots of opinions on it. the main facts everyone knows but every one usually has something to share that others don't know. Kelly brought up the protein formula which was very helpful. And you pointed out the fat content was higher. i had never thought to look at that as a reason for the vomiting.

bumping this up so people coming home from easter dinner will see it

I don't feed raw for a few reasons. I have more reasons not to feed prey model than I do not to feed pre-packaged but I won't feed any of it unless I get some new information.

Yes, one of my concernes in bacteria. This does (for the most part) apply only to dogs with compromised immune systems but what I'd like to know is who is the judge of whether their immune system is compromised? I never thought Ellie had a compromised immune system until she was spayed and the internal sutures didn't dissolve as fast as they should. Her body didn't attack them right away. There is no way to be 100% sure. And are we positive that this only effects compromised dogs, I'm not convinced. Food poisoning is much more rare in dogs than humans...I agree, but how much more rare, I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Next, raw egg (which some prepackaged foods are held together with) can deplete your dog of biotin. I don't think there is a good reason to feed raw egg.

And, I have seen zero studies on if a raw fed dog lives significantly longer than a dog eating kibble or homecooked. If they are proven to live longer, than I might consider feeding it BUT this isn't the case so far (we only have testimonials and we have those from homecooked too) and I see no reason to put Ellie's health and life in danger by giving her a mouthful of bacteria-filled meat and hoping her immune system will take care of it. There is so much risk already feeding any food (homecooked, kibble) and I see no reason to add any additional to it.

I don't like dog food much either though. Homecooking is by far my favorite because the diet can be balanced with a bit less bacteria concern and dogs that eat homecooked can do very well on it. I say cook the meat and add a supplement...

For prey-model diets, add the rare occurence of bone obstructions to the list (which DOES happen) which could have been avoided by brushing their teeth and giving them food. Also, vitamins aren't added to prey model and the diet isn't the least bit balanced. I don't believe this last part is just an opinion at all.

So, I would like to see the dogs fed raw live significantly longer (and I don't just mean one or two of them) than dogs fed other foods. If that is the case, then it might be worth the risk.

These are a lot of the same questions I had when I tried it. Taking into account the moisture content, the full weight of the product, calories, fat, protein, the amount of NV raw no way comes near the calories provided by kibble. Now, that said, we don't know how much of kibble goes undigested, so it really is a whole different issue.

I tried the NV medallions, but Chloe would not eat them right away. She wanted to let them sit all day until she decided she wanted to eat them. I kept putting them in the fridge, taking them out for a few over and over. It just didnt' work for us.

I know a lot of people like feeding the evo and those super high protein dog foods, but with yorkies being so prone to liver issues, it just doesn't sit well with me.

fwiw, :)

i had mine on Evo before switching to raw also. while I didnt mind about the high protein, i was concerned about the higher fat content. I still feed kibbles once in a while now and i just started trying Wellness Core Ocean and the love it. They are usually so picky about kibbles. It has high protein but not as much as Evo or Orijen. I only give them when i forget to defrost NV though.:)

I feel exactly like you do. I'm thinking that I am going to take the plunge and feed raw but I just wish I had some actual scientific data to back me up. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, I only have myself to blame. But if it's the right decision, then it would be the absolute best for my dogs. DECISIONS! Ugh! And there are so many people who think you are crazy, including vets that it really makes me question my decisions!

the holistic vet i went to see is all for me feeding raw right now. he says it will not harm morgan at all and will help her even with the odd liver enzymes. its an easier protein to digest then the ones in kibble. So i feel better hearing it from him. i put her back on raw and she is one happy pup.

oh good! That makes me happy to hear that! I wish we had a holistic vet around here. I couldn't find one on that list. :(

I'm jumping in late here but I feed Canidae in the morning because of the bile issues - otherwise mine do the same thing with the Evo. Loki also porked out on Evo but NOT on Orijen which is interesting. Anyway, the Canidae works for us for breakfast when I have 0 time to prep anything. At night we do canned. I get the highest quality Evangers, NV or Merrick canned (right now we are trying th NV) My vet says she prefers canned to kibble and doesn't like raw at all (most vets dont I assume). Anyway, they seem to like the canned and it is minimally processed. I feed them whatever we eat if it's something they can have, but often they are hungry at 4 and we eat at 6 :( Plus we have been eating out a lot lately so thats why we looked into the canned. Do you all see that as an alternative? Or not so much? Just wondering.

What's wrong with Morgan's liver enzymes?? I hope she's okay!!

Raw and the Question
 

I hope ya'll don't mind that I jump in, this thread may be "cooked" already, but just in case it isn't. Here I go;
I'm a prey model feeder by conviction. As you can see from my signature, I have 3 Yorkies with different age (and weight) levels. I used to feed all sorts of brands of kibble, switched to grain free kibble, home cooked and moved on to pre-made raw. I ended up on prey model because what I learned through my endless hours of research made sense. Everything else does not, although pre-made RAW aka NV, Primal etc. is not perfect, but comes pretty close ;). I have an immune system compromised dog that has been through the wringer for 11 years because I listened to the so called experts! Thousands upon thousands of dollars were spent on Vet/Specialist bills, meds, prescription foods, elimination diet, more meds, allergy shots, special shampoos and tinctures, surgery, you name it, we've done it! He has what's known as Systemic Yeast Infection and he was suffering to no end when I even considered putting him down last year. RAW has saved his life! Putting an end to the ever invasive booster shots has saved his life!
My dogs get whole meaty bones of various animals and their organ meats. Whole fish and whole RAW eggs which is all that a dog, a member of the Canidae family of the order Carnivora needs to thrive on. Proper balance is a myth word, made up by the kibble gangsters in order to market and sell their inferior crap, making a dog owner feel insecure about proper diet thus achieving revenue of course because people wanted to feed what they've been told by professionals is best for their dog! Now the dog supplement sellers have jumped on that bandwagon as well! No conclusive studies on dog diet exist. The kibble companies tested X number of dogs for X number of days (I have to re-check, but I think two weeks) and all it proved that those dogs could SURVIVE on kibble. This was apparently good enough for the FDA to give the green light for manufacturing. Scary, isn't it!? I know of a raw fed cat study and the outcome showed RAW as superior over anything else that was tested on them. Are there any studies on home cooked diets? I have never heard of any.
Brushing their teeth alone did not cut it. Chewing, ripping, tearing has made their mouth tartar free, stink free and gum disease free. Mahli never even had that problem to begin with as she started on prey model as soon as she got here. Gia was started on pre-made RAW. Toy used to be over weight, not anymore! I could go on and on about the benefits I personally witnessed with my senior dog! I wouldn't feed my gold fish grass or my rabbit last night's Spaghetti Dinner so I'm feeding my carnivore babies what they were meant to eat according to mother nature. The make up of the teeth/jaw and the digestive bio chemistry is the same as their ancestor, the gray wolf. Heck, even the pack behavior is the same. These are scientific facts, widely accepted world wide and pellet foods or cooked foods can't be the right answer. Why is it that other carnivores in captivity get to eat RAW but we are denying this to our domesticated pets? It doesn't make sense to me to cook these important nutrients out of a dog's food and then add them back in. I don't want to pump my dogs full of artificial supplements/vitamins, bone meal and who knows what. How do we know that THIS is safe, healthy or even beneficial? Are there studies on this? How does one know the difference a RAW diet could make if never even tried? Aren't the risks of NOT feeding a species appropriate diet higher in the long run? As long as Vets can make a profit from it, they will continue to push kibble. The only profit anybody makes on my feeding is the grocery store/butcher and they don't advertise their meats as dog specific. My Vet doesn't make a lot of money on me either as I never have to come in other than tests that I ORDER on my dogs because I want concrete proof in the readings.
Today's dogs may look different as man made breeding practises took form but their biological needs have not changed. The two oldest of my dogs have had blood tests and physicals that show amazing results never seen before by my new Vet as I'm the only prey model feeder at his clinic and the puppy will be next after a while of prey model eating. He honestly admitted that he would have never guessed Toy's true age and to keep doing what I was doing as he looks amazing! Thousands of other people around the world are reporting healthy, spunky dogs fed on RAW. The RAW chat groups that I'm a member of are each other's support because there are so many doubters in the world that constantly want to talk down RAW and keep bringing up these myths that have been explained, debunked and discredited over and over again. All of my fellow raw feeder friends have reported similar stories of past and present. People will raise/feed THEIR dogs the way THEY see fit. My only hope is that one day in the near future, those people will realize that NOT to feed RAW is THEIR choice- not the dog's! I KNOW that MY dogs cannot handle cooked and/or processed proteins or vegetables because since eating RAW, Toy eats his meals with gusto, doesn't vomit, has nice small firm black stools and even his behavior has changed for the better! He choked on kibble before (doggie Heimlich is interesting to say the least) and he choked on a piece of carrot before, I'm not at all scared that he'll choke on his meaty bone because given whole there are no problems with obstruction. There are many vids on youtube, showing how a dog eats prey model, it's worth checking out. I might make one of those and post it here.... Is it that unknowing people envision a dog hold a meaty bone with his paws and bite off a chunk of it to swallow whole???? It's very different that that and actually beautiful to watch! Again, I'm very active in the prey model community and the only reports about chocking on bones and/or obstruction/bloat was with either a non food object all together, cooked bones or kibble. I hope that this didn't sound like an angry rant as it was just meant as a tale, if you will, of a prey model feeder, a personal experience and a nudge to all dog lovers to give this way of feeding a real fighting chance! ;) Sorry, if this was off topic a bit!:eek:
XOXOXO
Nadia

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i bile acid tested morgan a few weeks ago. pre was 45 and post was 65. slightly high but nothing that points toward liver shunt. And its really really low to be MVD. she's asymptomatic. the internist i spoke with said i didn't have to change her diet to low protein since she wasn't showing symptoms and the holistic vet said the best thing i could do was to put her back on raw. she loves it.

Good Post Nadia!!! thanks for your input