a question about Lepto
 

We just got the card in the mail saying Layla is due for her shots.... I do not want her getting Lepto however, i want to go into the vet's office informed. How do you find out if you are in a high risk area for lepto? and where do they get it from? Layla has horrible reactions to shots. I always get her one set and then a week later her rabies. Also it says she is due for

Bord/Para/Adeno Continuum. What are these? Is Bord, Bordatella?
It also says she is due for DAP Continuum

to me this really seems like too much... she is so lethargic after her shots....

First, when is the last time she was vaccinated for parvo, distemper, hepatitis (adenovirus), bordatella and rabies?

Bord is Bordatella and I don't give it. Whatever you're comfortable with...

Lepto is a bacteria found in the urine of rats. It is prevalent on farms and in slow moving water (where bacteria thrives). Technically they can get it ever if they step in a puddle on the street with rat urine in it and then lick their paws. But, there are so many strains of it that you aren't guaranteed protection even with the vaccine. Most lepto vaccines also have to be given twice a year to ensure protection. Some vets try and scare you and tell you that if your dog gets lepto, you can get it from them. That is very true but you can also get it from infected water, so getting from a dog is the least of my worries. Yes, it is an extremely dangerous disease but some vets won't even give it to dogs under 10 pounds because it is just too dangerous. It has caused death in Yorkies (especially puppies) and should only be used in VERY high risk areas. I don't know where you can look to see if you are in a high risk area...I am looking for the same.

she got her one year booster... my vet at the time was not very forthcoming with info so i'm not sure WHAT exactly was in the booster... i do know she had rabies. does that change things?

I think everyone has covered the main points but I was going to tell you.... before I decided whether or not Franklin should get Lepto, I called almost every vet office in my area to see if they gave it. I, like you, could not find anywhere if where I live is a high risk area or not, so I decided to ask the experts! A lot of vets told me they didn't give it to small dogs and dogs that weren't going to be on a farm or near a lot of wildlife, so we opted not to. Maybe you can try that? :)

Rabies should be given as a puppy shot (at about 6 months old), then a one year booster and then whatever the law requires. I'd hope the law says every three years there after the first booster because every year is way too much.

Bordatella is up to you.

If she just had pup shots then she needs parvo, distemper and hepatitis (adenovirus). If she had the one year booster, she doesn't need these at all (for at least three years). You may want to do titers to make sure. Sometimes they add parainfluenza in this combo, so you don't have much of a choice on that one.

This is why my vet wanted Banjo to have it! We live out by a lake- there are lots of places that are just summer homes-cabins- I am sure there are Rats in some! Also I have a pond just 75 feet from my back door!also use to be a deer farm up the road- I sure there were rats in their feed storage-well more so than not! Also several other ponds around in neighbors yards! When I said out by the lake- he was oh, yea, you need it! Even though Banjo really never goes out except to the car! My roomy has 2 dogs that do go out- one swims in the pond in the summer!!:eek: I do keep a gate up- they do not really get next to Banjo- but he does stick his nose through to visit them!!:eek:
Really, after reading this water thing- I am glad Banjo got it!!! And he is 9 1/2 #!
Yep, Now I know why DR. V asked where I lived at now- and then said "Ellen, you really have to give him this!"

Because of all the water out around here!

Well he got it- and he seems just fine! :)

I know many of us (including me) are leary of Bordetella (and other vaccinations)-but it's necessary where I live. Both my dogs go to doggie daycare-and you never know who is bringing their dog there, and what their dog might have. Our local dog park requires that the dogs be current on vaccinations, and the groomer requires current shots and bordetella vaccines in order to get their hair cut.

I talked to my vet about it-(the new vet, who was WONDERFUL), and he said that he likes to give each vaccine as a separate shot-no combination ones. Also, the bordetella can be given as a shot or as nose drops-talk to your vet about the options and the reasons for each. Emma & Milli got the nose drops in the past, but the new vet recommended the shot this time.

Also, if you're worried about reactions, maybe do only 1-2 shots at the same time, and then go back one or two more times for the others that Layla needs. Make sure to wait 30 minutes at the vet's office after the shots to make sure she's not going to have a severe reaction. That way, if she does have a reaction, you'll be able to pinpoint where and what caused it. Also, if you wait at the vet's office, they will be able to help her if she has a reaction to something.

My vet had us wait 30 minutes after vaccinations for Emma and Milli-it pretty much took that long to finish looking them over, get flea/heartworm meds, and get checked out of the vet's office anyway :)

Thanks Suzy. Great idea to wait at the vet's! we ALWAYS do our rabies a week after her booster because the rabies knocks her right out... the booster just makes her drowsy and sore for a bit... Layla has had bordetlla vaccine and has also had kennel cough :rolleyes: go figure. and since she doesn't go to dog parks or groomers i think i'll see if i can opt out of this one. We go on Tuesday and i told the receiptionist i just wanted her "Physical" and blood for heartworm and blood panal and wanted to talk about the shots and she thought that was a great idea (:p i'm sure she woud... two appointments... more money :p) anyways! i love the idea to wait.. Layla will hate it but i would feel much better! this will be the first time getting these shots from our new vet so perhaps she will suggest we stay :)
Thanks again!

Oh, and make sure you have them put the first shots in her shoulders (like they normally do), and then the rabies in a back leg. Make sure to note which one. Sometimes the rabies vaccine makes a lump-if it does, then you'll know for sure it's the vaccine and not something else, and you won't worry like I did with Emma :rolleyes:

You might also see if they won't charge you for a second visit for the rabies shots-since it's just a "lab", and Layla will have had her exam the week before, you may not need to be charged for an office visit. Make sure you ask-it won't hurt, and you might save some $!

you sound like a pro at this :p you know all the ins and outs!!! haha

I have my vet do the absolute necessary. He also does not give all the shots to her all at once, something I requested, this way if she had a reaction, we had a better idea of which may have been the cause. Perhaps you can request the same from your vet. If he is not accomodating, I would find another. Good luck, hope your pup does well with the shots.

Sorry...don't mean to sound like a know-it-all on this....we just did our shots a few weeks back, so it's fresh in my mind :rolleyes:

lol... i know that :P

Zander's Mom i love the idea of going for each shot individually.. i know it will take more time and cost more but it is worth it... she has a very hard time with something they give her...

Marci, I'm just curious. Don't you like giving as few drugs as possible?
If none of these shots are necessary this year, why have you decided to get them? Just wondering...:)

well doens't she HAVE to have some of them? like legally doesn't she have to have rabies? I would LOVE to have her have none of them but how do i support that idea when tlaking to the vet?

The only shot that a dog has to have legally in the US is rabies. Some states require certain ones if you board, but that is usually left up to the individual companies. Ellie's vet also requires certain ones to be hospitalized but different vets have different policies and even if the vet says they have to be vaccinated once a year for DHPP, if you tell them you don't want to or agree to do titers, they SHOULD let you out of it. If they still insist on giving DHPP every year, please find a new vet.

Rabies will depend on your laws.
Michigan's rabies law is vaccinate at four months, vaccinate one year later and vaccinate every three year after that. Some states say you must vaccinate for rabies every year but the one year and three year shots are the same. That is a bad and unnecessary policy. Just because a dog has a higher chance of getting rabies in the South doesn't mean they can't get it in the North. They still need to be protected against it and some states feel every three years is enough. You will have to go with the law on this but if your area doesn't require it at all, I would go one at six months, another one a year later and then one every three to five years depending on what you and your vet are comfortable with. If you give the one year booster (which I think you said she already had) and then every three years after, that would be good enough for Michigan (as long as a good vaccine product is being used), so there is no debating about it. It isn't necessary to do it more unless the law says so. The thing is, some vets play the game of using the one-year rabies vaccine, so they can do it every year. For some companies, the one-year and three-year are the same, just packaged differently. You would have to know what company the vaccine came from to figure this out though. I think the most common is the Defensor vaccine and the one and three year are the same.

I'm sure your vet will require bordatella to hospitalize Layla. Sadly, most of them do.:( :( :(

Distemper, Parvo and Hepatitis (or Adenovirus) are the only other three core vaccines according to the American Animal Hospital Association. These should be given to pups, then one year later, then every three years according to the AHAA. They are one of the biggest animal health organizations in the world. If your vet isn't comfortable letting it go for three years, then you can do titers. Some vets believe titers are of little value though. It really doesn't matter what a vets thinks about them because the way I see it is, I will vaccinate as a pup and then one year later and then every three years. If you don't like it I'll do titers to make you happy. If you won't accept either, I will not be your client. Simple as that.:) I still think every three years is too much but try to convince vets of that... I did titers on Ellie six months ago and her distemper was way too low. In order to be a cooperative client, I allowed just the distemper to be boosted. I believe that the only reason it was low in the first place is because the year before she was vaccined for seven diseases at once (lack of knowledge). Vaccinating for that many at once can neutralize immunity.

The only one that I would consider giving every year is lepto (or bordatella if I had to give) because the vaccine lasts 6-12 months. That is only if you have to give it at all (I would hope not).

Giardia and Corona are not recommend by the AAHA because giardia hasn't even been proven to work:rolleyes: ...it may reduce shedding and coronavirus isn't that big of a deal if the dog gets it. The vaccine should be pulled from the market.

To read the AHAA's report, you can find pieces of it one Google or on YT. Kris Christine has posted bits of it on YT and her posts would really help you.

If you have any specific questions, I will try to answer.

By the way, I would want to know exactly what the vet gave her at her one year visit.

Lepto question & vaccines
 

Marcerella02,

You are getting some very good advice from other members here, they're quite informed!

First of all, you should be aware that small breeds of dogs are particularly prone to adverse reactions to the Leptospira vaccine and the rabies vaccine (see the information below). By giving vaccinations separately, you reduce the likelihood of an adverse reaction and the likelihood that the vaccine components will interfere with each other and neutralize or negate the immune response.

Dr. Ronald Schultz says that the rabies vaccine should never be given with other vaccines as it is the one most likely to cause adverse events.

You should discuss this information with your veterinary care provider, who should be giving you full disclosure before they vaccinate your dog.

Kris

Post-rabies vaccination alopecia is most commonly seen in toy or small breeds, especially Poodles, but Chihuahua cases have been reported. The lesion usually develops three to six months after vaccination. Dr. Michael Goldschmidt, Professor, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania http://www.afip.org/vetpath/WSC/wsc02/02wsc19.pdf

Regarding the Lepto vaccine, on Page 2 of the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines and Recommendations, it states that "Optional or 'noncore' vaccines are those that the committee believe should be considered only in special circumstances because their use is more dependent on the exposure risk of the individual animal. Issues of geographic distribution and lifestyle should be considered before administering these vaccines. In addition, the diseases involved are generally self-limiting or respond readily to treatment. The committee believes this group of vaccines comprises distemper-meases virus (D-MV), canine parainfluenza virus (CPIV), Leptospira spp., Bordetella bronchispetica, and Borrelia burdorferi."

Furthermore, on Page 7, Tables 1 of the AAHA Guidelines referenced above, it states under Revaccination (Booster Recommendations) that the Leptospira interrogans vaccine "....this product carries high-risk for adverse vaccine events." Under Overall Comments and Recommendations they elaborate: "Anecdotal reports from veterinarians and breeders suggest that the incidence of postvaccination reactions (acute anaphylaxis) in puppies (<12 wks of age) and small-breed dogs is high. Reactions are most severe in young (<9 wks of age) puppies. Routine use of the vaccine should be delayed until dogs are >9 wks of age."

On Page 8 of the 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines, it states that "Veterinarians are advised of anecdotal reports of ACUTE ANAPHYLAXIS in TOY BREEDS following administration of leptospirosis vaccines. Routine vaccination of toy breeds should only be considered in dogs known to have a high exposure risk."

Leptospira is a “killed” vaccine and is associated with clinically significant adverse reactions. According to the 2003 AAHA Guidelines (Page 16), "...killed vaccines are much more likely to cause hypersensitivity reactions (e.g., immune-mediated disease)." Further, the AAHA task force reports on Page 18 that, "Bacterial vaccines, especially killed whole organism products …..are much more likely to cause adverse reactions than subunit or live bacterial vaccines or MLV vaccines, especially if given topically. Several killed bacterial products are used as immunomodulators/adjuvants. Thus, their presence in a combination vaccine product may enhance or suppress the immune response or may cause an undesired response (e.g., IgE hypersensitivity or a class of antibody that is not protective)."

A fuller discussion of the Lepto vaccine can be found on Page 14, in which it is reported that, "Immunity is an ill-defined term for Leptospira ssp. products. If immunity is defined as protection from infection or prevention of bacterial-shedding, then there is little or no enduring immunity."

Dr. Alice Wolf, Professor of Small Animal Internal Medicine at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, stated in an address (Vaccines of the Present and Future http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00141.htm) at the 2001 World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress that: "The most reactive vaccines for dogs include leptospirosis bacterin and Borrelia [Lyme]vaccine.".

Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots--on Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety, it states that: "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

wow thank you Kris! Layla did not get Lepto however today she had to get her booster and it will be good for 3 years...a nd by law she has to get her rabies which she will be getting in three week. I really appreciate all that info! and thankfully her rabies will be good for 3 years as well!

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines
 

Marcella,

This is what Dr. Ronald Schultz had to say in his 2007 presentation to the AKC Canine Health Foundation entitled,What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs (http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What%20Everyone%20Needs%20to%20Know%20About%20Cani ne%20Vaccines.htm) :

"My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. "

The vaccines in the quote above are CDV (distemper), CPV-2 (parvovirus), CPI (canine parainfluenza), and CAV-2 (hepatitis), and Dr. Ronald Schultz is the Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine. His challenge and serological studies on canine vaccines form a large part of the scientific data base upon which the 2003 and 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are based, as well as the 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association's Vaccine Guidelines.

Kris

Thank you so much for keeping us informed. There has been some discussion about giving puppies 1/2 doses of their vaccinations. What is your opinion on this?

Personally, for my own dogs, I would wait until after the age of 16 weeks and then give them a full dose each of distemper, hepatitis, and parvo separately (2-3 weeks apart). Here in Maine, we don't have to vaccinate puppies against rabies until they are 6 months old, so I would wait until 6 months to give my own puppy a rabies shot.

You'd have to discuss the 1/2 dose with your veterinarian. From what I understand, there has to be a certain level of antigen for a vaccine to be effective, and I don't know that 1/2 dose would be enough.

Kris