hhhmmm....if you didn't find anything useful on that thread, I'm wondering if you availed yourself of the many many links posted?...:thumbup: :thumbup: yeah, everything she said - Plus: seeing an improvement in your senior dog (13th year). Less pain w/arthritis, easier mobility. Depends, if your talking about raw meat for a human or raw meat for a canine. Humans are more suited to eating fruits, grains, and nuts as is evidenced by their teeth. We have grinders, and just a few canines. Neither are we equipped with enzymes that will fight bacterial nasties that canines' systems can handle. Dogs, on the other hand, have a mouth full of canines, and a digestive system ideally suited for eating a prey model diet (raw meat). Cooking destroys proteins that the canine (dog) needs. Plus, cooking makes any bone dangerous.Correct: "raw meat could be potentially harmful to you"; as, YOU are not a dog, and therefore not equipped to safely process raw meat. We should resist the urge to lick raw chicken legs.Yes. While evolution may be a theory, the FACT is that your dog is a member of the wolf family, and one look in his/her mouth should assure you that s/he is equipped to a prey model diet...:thumbup: :thumbup:

Granted they are in the same family as wolves, but that does not mean that they can be treated the same in every aspect. The domesitcation and selective breeding of dogs over centuries time has altered them so that they are far from 'wolves.' Other than the basic aspects, the species are quite different. I wouldn't think it safe to assume that even their most basic requirements for life are the same.... I really don't see where you can compare one to another and act as if what is good for one is good for the other. Just generally speaking....

this is a great debate thread! Reading through some posts i did have some comments, but Lara has gotten to them first LOL so i won't repeat.

Great info and thoughts from everybody.

Isn't it great (and informative) when people can express and discuss differing opinions like real adults.:)

"The basic aspects", being...?(what)? *I* wouldn't think it safe to assume their basic requirements for life have changed - since their 'basice' digestive systems have not.

I do agree that we cannot treat wolves and Yorkies the same "in every aspect". We might loose an arm if we try dressing a wolf in clothes and putting froo-froo bows in her/his hair :D.

I think their basic requirements for life are still basically the same regarding food and water. The shelter part is the problem when it come to the selective breeding we've done to create so many breeds. Some just cannot live outdoors. I think they're food requirements have stayed the same. Their abdominal cavity has stayed the same.

Dogs and Wolves have the same genetic makeup and have actually been reclassified as one species:

http://www.geocities.com/havens_home/feedraw.htm

Your dog—your little Toy Poodle or Great Dane sitting there in you lap—is a wolf. The scientists have agreed—the dog is a wolf. They’ve even been reclassified is Canis lupus familiaris. Well, with only a .02 difference between mitochondrial DNA (mDNA—the little stuff, not the big stuff), go figure. There’s that much difference between human races.

This is a great thread, very interesting. As I'm reading the posts regarding the evolution from wolves I'm picturing the look on the wolf's face if they could see our little furbabies with bows in their hair wearing a beautiful dress laying on their princess bed, with us completely wrapped around their little paws, they come a long way baby! LOL!:D

Hmmm...kind of hard to put into words what I mean....:rolleyes: And this is all just something I'm throwing out there for consideration and disscussion...

Basic requirements for life meaning food and water...yes, clearly they both reqire that. I would think though that the selective breeding and domestication (due to human interference) has had much more impact that could affect the bigger picture on a scale a bit bigger than just 'some can't live outdoors.'
We know that Yorkies, like all breeds, are succeptable to certain illnesses, genetic faults, immune deficiencies, allergies, etc....all the resulting from many years of being bred to create a breed, bad breeding, etc. Can the same be said about wolves? I'm sure there are some things that wolves are more succeptable to, but are the specific issues the same? Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years...you don't think there have been genetic mutations thanks to humans and their selective breedings in that amount of time.
A domestic dog's system in general is compromised by many factors that wolves are never exposed to. Immunizations, disease not neccessarily found in the wild (and vice versa), medical treatment, changes in the bodies natural balances due to surgeries, spay and neuter, etc. How do we know that these things are not compromising aspects of the dogs system that are comparable to those of wolves making them not as efficient?
Do these things not create huge differences for the two? Making them quite different from one another in some ways?

Hi Misty, OK, that's cleared up. Well, yes, obviously there are mutations - look at the many sizes, shapes and breeds of dogs. But, their basic digetive systems have not changed. The way they ingest and process fuel (food and water) is, basically, unchanged.Agreed. Human interference with over-vaccinating surely has compromised immune systems in the domesticated dog, resulting in a host of diseases and conditions not suffered by their cousins, the wolf. However, compromised immune systems and weak teeth have not changed their digestive systems into something that is suddenly (kibble/commercial dog 'food' has only been around about 70 years) more apt to processing ingredience in 'domestic' manmade commercially produced food-like substance: grains, carbs, sugar, plastics, and diseased animals (which, given a choice, the dog would not eat) found in kibble/canned. Do they survive on manmade food-like substance? Obviously. Survival of the fittest dictates that a species survive and procreate, therefore any species will exist on limited fuel. Humans survive this way too, in captivity. That doesn't mean that our basic internal workings require less than optimum fuel. Just that we adapt to certain criteria of survival.

[QUOTE=lara2913;1558885]

Ummmmm, well some of us would beg to differ. More than anything its the type of bone that needs to be considered. Generally speaking, its cooked bones, beef bones, the leg bones of large animals and bones that are an inapropriate size for the said dog that can cause problems. Its all about research and 'know thy dog' really. Myself, I consider the risks of appropriate raw meaty bones doing damage to my dogs to be lower that the risk of serious dental dieseses that they could get if they were not

Ellie already has periodontal disease (from eating kibble and not brushing teeth). I brush her teeth everyday and that is fine with me. I agree that toothpaste could be recalled and I have thought about it. There is a lower risk of that happening then her choking on a bone or tearing herself up inside and requiring emergency surgery in my opinion.

When I say cooked meats don't contain bacteria, I am talking in general. Of course there is always a low risk whatever we do. There is a higher chance of a dog getting E coli, salmonella and toxoplasmosis when eating raw meat. I'm pretty sure that's a fact. Yes, if the dog has a strong immune system these things should be no problem, but who is the judge of that. I don't think anyone knows for sure if their dog has a strong immune system.

[QUOTE=lara2913;1558997]


Some of them may have been for salmonella, but then of course another debate is that fresh sources that may have low levels of salmonella would be safer than salmonella infested kibble that has been sitting in a bag multiplying for months or even years. They were infected with all sorts of other harful things too. I guess the way it is, I personally choose to take responsibility of my own dogs diet, rather than let a commercial company do it for me.


I agree that kibble can be full of the stuff but I choose not to go that way either. Why not just buy fresh meat and cook it?

So, I have been looking online to read about a wolf's diet. It seems as though they eat larger animals like caribou and deer, so I guess you raw feeders would say our dogs should get what they get in the wild. When someone posted a link to a website that an animal had eaten deer bones and was hurt because of it you said it was the wrong type of bone. That is what a wolf would eat in the wild. How can it be he wrong type?

Also, I don't think wolves eat cow and chicken in the wild. Why do you feed it? When you read about what small animals they eat, they do eat rabbit but also mice (yummy). Are you going to start putting this on the menu?

As for dogs not wanting to eat grain, I know of dogs who lived outside so they could hunt. They liked the corn in the garden.

I like debating with all of you but somehow I don't think we are convincing each other...:)

Hi Ellie May,

If you're looking for basic existence, it's at least a better choice than commercial dog stuff. If you're looking for the optimum diet for your canine pet, cooking kills most of the nutritional value, thereby making it more difficult for your dog to use it efficiently. He may have to eat more because he is hungry, thus becoming more prone to obesity, diabetes and heart disease.

JMO

:) True. We can theorize until the proverbial cows come in; but, I (for one) feed RAW, because it saved my Mozart's life. THAT I did not get from someone else's opinions, books, or research studies. I'm living it.

Among other things, it was suggested earlier that the diseases and parasites often found in raw meat would only harm dogs with weakened immunes systems. If we know their systems--immune and other--are compromised by vaccinations and then again by mass breeding...see what I mean? And how are we to be sure that their bodies chemistry (including digestive enzymes) are not off balance as a result as well? Just things to ponder...

Thing is...the domestic dogs on average are living longer than their wild cousins with all raw diets.:cool:

I don't think anyone made that claim. I'm not saying that kibble is better, but honestly either one is being exposed to goodness only knows what during processing and packaging. You aren't going to get either that is completely 'untainted.' Human grade foods are not safe from being recalled either.
Honestly, I understand the reasoning behind the theory for feeding a raw diet, but for every source claiming them to be beneficial, you can find an equally credible source claiming the opposite. It all comes down to what you feel is best for your dog(s) individually and it is especially important to examine their individual needs as what is good for one may not be good for the next. (I can attest to that!)

Captivity?!? I don't know about you, but I prefer to think of myself as one of those 'free range' humans.

Nah, not trying to convince anyone of anything or 'bring them to the other side,' just trying to get some info on another option and point of view and share my thoughts in the process.:)

Here is Indy's GE thread- http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=105239

In those pix, I see a VERY healthy and happy little girl. Beautiful coat, stunning clear eyes and just overall in fantastic condition. Before RAW, she had sores on her body because her skin was so dry, flakey and irritated, she had tear stains streaming down her face, she was a mess, this was after feeding even the best commercial foods, home cooking and doing endless tests. That is why I feed RAW.

I am not going to start repeating myself as you are all asking questions that I have already answered elsewhere in the thread (re- what types of bones are safe etc).

Its worth remembering guys, that those of us who are promoting RAW on here are people who are actually feeding it, every single day, people who have seen how their dogs have benefitted to hugely from it. I don't see anyone who has fed it, coming on here and putting it down, do you? Whereas no offence, but those of you putting it down are people who have never fed it, posting any link or myth that you can find to make out that what we are doing is wrong. The only thing I have to do to confirm to me that i'm doing the right thing is look at my healthy, happy dogs.

I will be getting off now, we are moving tomorrow so i'm very busy. Hope you all have a great day :)

Then you have obviously made the best choice for your dog. I have one that is living proof that the high end, 6 star, all natural marketed commercial foods aren't always best as they nearly killed one of mine.:(

I am interested in knowing more about the situation with Mozart and how raw saved him, if you don't mind...:)

That is why I use supplements. She isn't allowed to eat more than I put out for her. Yes, she is hungry all the time but who know why she asks for food? It is probably because she likes eating it. She is skinny and has been skinny all her life, so no worries there.

No one was putting it down, no more than I have seen the cooked/kibble preferences put down...just trying to get info and discuss things that we don't understand. :( No one has said what you are doing is wrong or tried to post or provide to discredit any of you, just to offer differing points of view and information. You don't have to agree with it. :)
Thank you for your input on the subject. If you are happy with it and feel that you have made the best choice for your dogs, then you probably have. :thumbup: At this point I feel the same way about the homecooked/kibble/supplements that I feed mine who are also happy healthy dogs.

Good luck w/ your move!

I know what you mean! I have one that will eat everything in sight if it means she gets more than the others. She wasn't like that until we brought in our newest addition. The first time we tired to feed them altogether, she gobbled her food, then everyone elses and litterally ate until she couldn't walk and threw up. :eek: We don't make that mistake now! :rolleyes:

Certainly :).

My Mozart is a mix. His sire was a champion Silky that kept escaping and getting to the mixed dame (Maltese/Shih-tzu) up the street. :rolleyes: Anyway, he's always had tummy issues, and we tried all the higher "quality" commercial dog stuff on the market. As he aged, the condition got progressively worse, until, in his eighth year he was throwing up every day. I'm not talking *gack* (spit up a little) - this was wretching from his toenails. I felt so helpless. Sooooo, the vet put him on a super duper Rx brand. Still wretching. So, I dropped all kibble/commercial and went to homecooking. Boiled chicken, rice, oatmeal, carrots were his main menu. Makes me shudder, now! LOL Well, that was not much better - still wretching. By now, the vet wants to do exploratory surgery.

I don't recall how I heard about prey model feeding; but, I found the group online that I've referred to here, before, and started reading. I was impressed that these people had nothing to sell - just talking about what they have experienced in their own lives with pets. I did not feel comfortable with letting Mo go through "exploratory surgery" unless it was a very last resort. I started the RAWfeeding, and prayed (a lot!). I will say, that with him, it was not an easy switch. He didn't eat for three days, and I cried every one of those days. The routine went something like this: I offer chicken quarter, he sniffs his disdain, looks at me like "why do you hate me, mom?" and walks away. The group encouraged me not to give up on him, and the fact that I had literally tried every other avenue, so had nothing to go back to, kept my resolve. Every day, I would send a sob post: "He's still not eating", and getting really pretty worried. He was already weakened from what he'd been through, and he wasn't a pup anymore. But, my boy can be very, very stubborn! On the morning of the fourth day, we had our mealtime 'ritual', and I - not being able to take it anymore - came in to write our farewell post: when I heard an odd noise coming from the kitchen. I ran to get him out of the trash (again), and found him EATING the chicken leg!!

*Tears of Joyful relief*.

Aww...I'm so glad things worked out for you both. They can be such stubborn little buggers!:p

Thanks, me tooo!

Yes, some more stubborn than others! I confess to our rough beginnings with RAW, because some dogs don't recognize raw meat as a food source for awhile. Their systems are accustomed to the grains, carbs, etc (or cooked) of their past. Abigail took to it right off, at 8 weeks :).

Wow...that's kind of a shock...most pups haven't been weaned that long at 8 weeks! I would have thought they'd need to have received their de-worming before eating a raw meat, or do you feel the freezing would eliminate the risk of parasitic infection efficiently enough?
I guess I'm just very concerned about that as I have seen first hand what it can do to a dog...perhaps overly concerned, to be honest.:(

I know of breeders who wean their pups straight onto raw. Some of the healthiest pups i've ever seen.

I have already posted links about parasite concerns, are you just going to keep parotting yourself? Honestly you have no need to be 'concerned' about something you know next to nothing about.

Geez...excuse me for having a civil conversation with someone and trying to learn something new. :rolleyes: I didn't mean to offend you by listening to opinions other than just yours and the one of the individual who wrote what you posted. (You posted links to one site, written by one person, that was quite one sided...I just wanted to find out more than that.)
We weren't all born knowing everything about dogs or their diets, we all had to learn somewhere, right? How better than to get info from people who are already having success with it and are knowledgeable on the subject? If you feel like you've offered an explanation, then sobeit, but what harm is it doing that some of us continued with the conversation. Again, thanks for your input and time to offer some info--it was appreciated.

Sorry, I guess it just gets annoying when you have to answer the same questions over and over again.

Then don't answer them. There seem to be many different answers and opinions to the same question. I have been interested in and have appreciated hearing all of them.:)
If something that has already been addressed comes up again and the same question is asked again, it isn't to discredit what someone else already offered, it's to get another point of view.