I know that alot of members here feed Raw...I would just have a hard time with it. In all my years of owning animals I have never had one of them get sick because of what they ate. I had a golden that lived a very healthy happy life until 15 yrs and a cocker that was the same age. I think the word raw just doesn't sound good to me..JMO

What exactly do you think kibble IS? :rolleyes:

It is "people food" (and often, it is the "people food" rejected by the slaughter houses) that is processed to death, with a whole bunch of additives and preservatives - and made into KIBBLE.

And, btw, the size of any dog has nothing to do with what it can or cannot eat. I'm 5'4", my friend is 5'0" - would that determine what our bodies could eat?

We all do what we believe to best for our dogs. I do not criticize people for feeding kibble, I have no problem with people feeding kibble.

I have never once started a thread about feeding raw, not once. I simply answer peoples questions about raw when they come up.

There are discussions on this forum about all types of feeding, different kibbles, canned foods, home cooking, premade raw and prey model raw. I see that as a good thing, it means there is a wide range of opinions. Obviously when there is a raw feeding thread, i'm going to post in it, because I know about raw. If there was a thread about you type of kibble you feed, im sure you would post in it.

I feed raw because my dogs thrive on it, more than they did on anything else and if I can help others by advising them on raw then I will. My PM box is filled with people asking questions about raw every day, and I answer every single one of them, because i'm happy to help. What I don't appreciate is being criticized for doing nothing more than trying to help people and their furbabies.

Just because some people choose to do something different than that way you do it, or the way most people do it, doesn't mean they are wrong.

http://www.ruffkutz.co.uk/page4.htm
http://www.rawdogranch.com/
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm
http://rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.naturalpetcare.co.uk/nutrition/dogdiet.htm
http://www.holisticvet.co.uk/nutrition.htm
http://www.ukbarfclub.co.uk/
http://www.rawlearning.com/
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/showcontent.toy?contentnid=7232
http://www.raw4dogs.com/calculate.htm

I recently switched my guys to NV, and Marcel has a history of digestive issues - but is doing great!

His nutritionist said to use venison, rabbit, and lamb at first - to stay away from beef and chicken either entirely, or to add it waaaaay later. That's just one opinion though, and it was specifically for Marcel. Also, she recommended we continue w/ Marcel's mashed potatoes w/ his meals - and we do. He adores his potatoes to no living end, so who knows if we'll ever be able to discontinue it, lol.

My point is, maybe try one of the other meat - and perhaps mixing it w/ a bit of potato will help ease any tummy upset (a bit of carb may help w/ that).

When you're feeding your dogs kibbles(such as I do), and you give them table scraps(which I still feel isn't good for them), then they're going to be pickier eaters(that's a fact)! Just like the ones feeding raw, if you ever go back to kibbles, well, you probalby wouldn't, but, you probably couldn't, because these dogs would be too used to eating the foods that you've been giving them..
Wylie, you're not a dog..?? you're a human..I'm telling you from years of experience, big dogs are able to eat things that upset the little dogs stomaches...

I hope your little one is feeling better this morning,
 

it can be soooo scary when they are sick. Please keep us posted.

Not that you asked, but here is my 2 cents on the raw diet:

I for one will not feed raw. That being said, I am not saying that those of you who feed RAW are wrong. When Ginger developed allergies, I researched raw, homecooked, etc., After reading, and reading, and reading I went back to high quality kibble. I just feel that enough actual research has not been done on RAW over a long enough period of time. When I search using Google, I don't read the opinions of any company that is seling a product. What is left is overwhelmingly negative. I've decided not to risk it.

Good luck to all of you who do. I truly hope that in ten years you are still singing the praises of RAW...maybe by then there will be loads of new research to persuade us all.

Why on earth would I want to go back to feeding them kibble?

And i'm telling you from years of experience that small dogs don't have different dietary requirements to big dogs. Dogs is dogs, whatever package they come in they are all essentially wolves.

The reason some small dogs may appear to be more sensitive than big dogs would essentially be down to quantities, a regular sized treat you might buy would be nothing for a large dog but could fill a little ones tummy and would therefore obviously have more of an effect on them. Comprehend?

To be honest, my personal opinion is that not enough thought goes into kibble, kibble has not been around for long enough for dogs to adapt to being able to process it properly. Kibble has only been about for maybe 70 years tops, not even a whole human lifetime. Dogs still have the digestive systems of wolves, I dred to think what state the canine race will be in a 100 years. It is a fact that illnesses, defects, cancers etc etc etc are rising more and more in dogs. Its a sorry state that we are in that we no longer feel we have the ability to provide a healthy balanced diet to our canine friends from natural raw materials and as a result of that our dogs are not able to enjoy the food that they were destined to eat.

Actually, Wylie is a dog. I was trying to use an analogous question, using humans, to put it into terms that would help you understand my point. Obviously, I was not successful.

So here's my point again: DIGESTIVE ISSUES ARE NOT DETERMINED BY THE SIZE OF THE DIGESTIVE PARTS - human, canine, or otherwise. That's not an opinion based on "years of experience" - that's a fact.

Hi Ginger - I don't base my research on just the most recent data regarding raw. I DO base it on canines eating raw for about....a gazillion years BEFORE we forced them to eat kibble. That's pretty persuasive for me. :)

Exept that domesticated canines were eating scraps for hundreds of years before eating kibble...usually cooked scraps.:) Anyway, that is once again, just my opinion. I admit freely, that I may be wrong. I just choose not to risk it with my guys. There are just so many who feel it is dangerous and, again, no current valid research. Sorry...

Judy

Back when dogs ate everything, they never had their teeth cleaned by a vet either..how many of you still take them in for a teeth cleaning? I don't brush my dogs teeth, nor do I take them in and have their teeth cleaned..the greenies seem to be doing a good job, as the 5 year old yorkies teeth are still in good shape..If you all want to feed raw, that's your decision, you have your own opinoins, and the ones of us that feed kibble, and continue to do so, have our own opinions..maybe in the next few years, we will see which way is best...so far, I've had a dog live to be 18, and the next oldest is about 10..she's never had anything other than kibbles, and probably in her whole life of 10 years, has had anything but her kibble(chicken or beef roast bites), maybe a dozen times...she's still very healthy..her total vet bill for me, other than her puppy shots and spaying and rabis, has been a total of $0....she's always been healthy, as have the other ones..other than the money I just put out to have a tumor taken off the one yorkie...so, I must be doing something right, dont' you think??

I never said or thought that you are doing anything wrong whatsoever! I fully support kibble feeders,homecookers, and raw feeders. I'm not trying to persuade you to feed raw, so I'm not sure why you feel like anyone is saying you're doing "wrong". Do what you feel is best in your situation - and allow others to do the same. I'm not trying to be "right" here or win any contest.

No need for apologies, my friend, I respect your opinion! :)

Out of curiosity, during your research, did you find current and valid research that convinced you of kibble being superior to "real" food? Bc, personally, I always found info to the contrary....and that was a big part of why I veered away from the kibble.

I have never brushed my dogs teeth or taken them to be cleaned. Their prey model diet does a perfect job. Our 8 year old dog doesen't have the slightest hint of yellow on her perfectly white teeth.

No. I found mixed information about homemade, as well. While I think a properly planned and executed homemade diet would be healthy, I am not a nutritionist and there is an overwhelming amount of contradictory information out there. Truly, I was afraid of using too much protein or not enough protein, which supplements to add....I finally got overwhelmed. Then I thought about the lives of my pets (past and present). Not one (so far) has died young or suffered any long term illnesses, all have eaten commercial dog food. So I switched my focus and began researching kibble. Ginger has severe allergies, but does really well (except during spring and fall when her airborne allergies are high) on the kibble I've selected. She can't have beef, chicken, lamb, salmon, venison, duck, turkey, green beans, wheat, soy...the list goes on. Her teeth are healthy (we were just at the vet) her ears are clear, her heart sounds good, she has firm bms... Bernie has incontinency issues and can't have anything but one specific kibble that I feed on the advice of the vet. Trust me, one dropped table scrap or an accidental ingestion of one of my other dog's foods and I'm cleaning the walls:eek:

This girl is sticking to kibble:)

That's what I like to hear...no brushing...mine has had kibbles all her life too, and her teeth are fine..so, maybe we're all doing the "right thing"..Like I said, to each his own, I have my opinions on kibbles versus raw, as does everyone else..if your raw is working, that's great, but, the food I have mine on is working great for mine..as long as they all live long healthy lives, that's all that matters..

As I said, thats fine, I personally choose not to risk feeding kibble to mine :)

In Dr Tom Lonsdales book 'works wonders' he talks alot about the progression of what dogs were fed, he also says that healthy cooked table scraps have a place within a dogs raw diet, but kibble has no place. Perhaps worth a read? Its also worth mentioning that when people fed dogs cooked scraps (along with raw bones and some raw foods) dogs had more freedom, they used to go out and catch rabbits, rodents and other whole prey to consume. The progression of dog ownership means that dogs no longer have the freedom to do that.

Not to start a whole 'nother thing, lol, but if you did your research - you probably also learned that canine allergies skyrocketed and continued to do so with the advent of kibble? That allergies began in dogs when we added kibble? Don't get me started, girl! LOL.

I have to go eat breakfast, girls....you know what I'm having? Cereal! It's human kibble!!!!! LOL.

Enjoy your kibble Ann, just don't start eating nothing but it:lol tears

I can't find that quote, but did a quick google, there are a lot of great links on this site.

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-...s_Raw_Food.htm

It specifically addresses your point however, about dogs eating "prey". Meat that an animal comes across in the wild is not the same as the meat we provide for them...see article, it too may be worth a read.

Keep in mind, this is what I'm sending you after 2 minutes of googling. I'm sure I'll find the holes in it myself if I keep looking into it.;)

For me, until there is actual research supporting it, I'll wait. My dogs have all lived healthy lives (kibble's all that I've fed in my lifetime)

Hopefully, the research will show us that you all have found the right diet.

Oh, and Dr. Lonsdale has something to sell:)

Not really, he has lost alot of money over the years from promoting raw, because he doesn't get endorsed by the kibble companies like most vets do. He actually gives his books away for free.

The internet is the internet, anyone can make a website. Of course there will be anti raw sites, there are also pro raw sites, there are anti kibble sites, and pro raw sites. You have to decide what is best for your dogs, I know whats best for mine.

As I have said countless times before, coming from the perspective of having fed kibble and raw, my dogs do best on raw, thats a fact. So I will continue to feed it to them :)

LOL, you are trying to start something. :) I have seen that, this is why I first research raw. I've also found research that suggest the allergies came about when we started using monthly wormers, and monthly pesticides, etc... But, again, Ginger does well on her kibble. Only seasonal allergies twice a year. Gosh, that's peanuts compared to the problems that too much protein or an unwanted parasite could potentially cause in a diet. Here's another example of why I'm saying...I'll wait and see what we know in 10 years... here's an excerpt from another site, link is at the bottom:


Raw Meat Diet - caution

When making a diet at home it is important to remember to
include all of the food groups which it seems like you are doing.
I am not aware of any proven benefits of raw meat over cooked meat in
home-made diets. The safest course of action would probably be to cook the meat to eliminate toxoplasmosis, salmonellosis and E. coli infections. These are probably the most common food borne diseases that affect dogs when they are fed raw meat, although other problems are reported.
Toxoplasmosis is a parasite whose cysts live in the muscle of cattle, pigs
and other creatures. If meat is not cooked enough the cysts live and can
infected dogs or humans exposed to them. In an immune compromised patient this is a much worse problem than in patients with normal immune systems.
E. coli and Salmonella are bacterial infections. In most cases they are the
result of food contamination by infected workers who handle the meat during processing. I am not aware of any studies that really quantify the risk to dogs of these illnesses but they are frequently implicated in food poisoning deaths in humans, we know that dogs do get infections from these bacteria and it is therefore reasonable to assume that there is a risk which probably approximates that of humans but may be smaller or even larger than the risk to people. These would also be more likely to cause serious illness in an immune compromised patient. Mike Richards, DVM


Link:
http://www.vetinfo4dogs.com/drawmeat.html

Of course this site makes "no bones" about being opposed to raw, so the opinions can be expected to be biased just as "pro-raw" sites. But as near as I can tell, he's not selling anything, so it's just one mans opinion.

Ginger, i'm not sure what you are trying to get at here but let me make this clear.

I do not care that you feed kibble, thats fine. I don't go onto threads about kibble and tell people to feed raw, why are you doing this on a raw feeding thread?

Not selling anything- http://rawfed.com/myths/

Sweetie,

First, Ginger is my dog. :) I apologize. I was concerned for the original poster's pup and simply wanted to make sure she had done her own research.

Second, I will stop. Perhaps I should not have given another side or viewpoint.

I think if you reread my posts you will see that I have been respectful and that I have admitted repeatedly on both of these threads that I may be wrong.

I certainly did not wish to cause you stress, but was just enjoying the thought provoking conversation.

Have a wonderful morning.:)


Ann,

Enjoy your breakfast kibble!:D

I did not know your name, how could I? Now I do, hello Judy :)

Its great to have different viewpoints, I just dislike it when people surf the internet and feel they can make a judgement based on that alone.

I'm sorry, I just have to say one more thing.

That is my point exactly, do your own research and decide what works for you. I hope that you have chosen the right thing. I really do.

GOOD MORNING LADIES!

Well first off i'd like to say that i do enjoy reading the debate on kibble vs raw because for the most part it was very respectful. However i do think that there should be a thread just to discuss that. I do not like when someone asks a question about something in particular and then a whole debate (which sometimes gets ugly, tho not here) springs up. Its good that people do their research on whatever it is they want to feed. This particular thread was about someone who just started feeding their dog raw and it threw up. she was worried and wanted to know what about the raw could have done it, if it was the raw at all. I think we should stick to that question and not blow up her thread.

Lastly i would like to say that i highly respect Lara's opinions on the matter of RAW, and she knows that because i bug her all the time. LOL I also highly respect Judy's opinion because she is a very nice person that doesn't like to stir the pot, and who also does wonderful work with the yorkie rescue. So i know neither of your opinions are being given just to cause controversy. With that said i do think we should start a "RAW vs Kibble" thread and share all of our information there so that more people can learn of the two diets and have a lot of information readily available if they are thinking of switching. :)

sorry for rabbling, i just woke up, and i hope everything makes sense and doesn't offend anyone. :cup:

Well, speaking for myself ONLY, I find it insulting that you think I lack the intelligence to "do my own research" before switching to raw. Does anyone else feel persecuted?