Oh gosh, I'm SO sorry you still aren't further along with answers...that kind of worry and stress can be just overwhelming :(. I really feel for you.

Has clostridium been discussed...ie c.diff and c.perfringens..? Especially if you give bully sticks!

I think so? We did a full diarrhea panel on May 1st:

CANINE DIARRHEA PANEL COMP (2625)


CRYPTOSPORIDIUM by RealPCR

NEGATIVE

GIARDIA SP by RealPCR

NEGATIVE

SALMONELLA PCR

NEGATIVE

CIRCOVIRUS REALPCR K9

NEGATIVE

CANINE ENTERIC CORONAVIRUS

NEGATIVE

CANINE PARVOVIRUS 2

NEGATIVE

CANINE DISTEMPER VIRUS

NEGATIVE

CAMPYLOBACTER JEJUNI PCR

NEGATIVE

CAMPYLOBACTER COLI PCR

NEGATIVE

C. DIFFICILE TOXIN A/B

NEGATIVE

C. PERF ALPHA TOXIN GENE

POSITIVE

CPA GENE QUANTITY

32

THOUS/g

FOLD DIFFERENCE ABOVE CUTOFF

0.11

CPA GENE INTERPRETATION

CPA GENE COPY NUMBER BELOW CUTOFF
C.PERF ENTEROTOXIN GENE

NEGATIVE

C PERF CPnetEF TOXIN GENE

NEGATIVE 1

We stopped giving bully sticks due to the choking hazards when it got really small. The boys would try to swallow it!

Do you think we should proceed with the Endoscopy? I hate when they have to go under.

So the c.perf alpha toxin gene was positive - but the add'l testing was negative, so I'm assuming they were satisfied with these results...? Did they talk to you about that particular part? All dogs do have c.perf in their systems (as do humans) - but it's when overgrowth or consumption of c.perf overgrowth is a problem that causes infection level.

Gosh, at this point, I think I probably would do and Endo and a biopsy.

Also though -- have you traveled anywhere with the dogs and/or have they been kenneled anywhere...?

We have not traveled anywhere, however they did go on walks around the neighborhood. They are constantly sniffing every piece of grass and poop. I know there was a lot of geese poop around at some point in early spring. I thought they may have caught something from that. Here is the additional text from the diarrhea panel, the vet did not mention anything about it:

A POSITIVE CANINE DIARRHEA PANEL PCR result indicates that the nucleic
acid (DNA or RNA) of that organism(s) was detected in the fecal
sample. In a patient with clinical signs of diarrhea, this supports
infection. Vaccination with a modified live coronavirus and/or
distemper vaccine may result in positive results for these viruses for
up to a few weeks post-vaccination.

Clostridium perfringens toxin genes (CPA, CPE, CPnetE/F) positive PCR
results should be interpreted based on their quantitative levels.
Note that recent or concurrent antibiotic therapy against Clostridium
will lower the quantitative levels. In animals with CPA or CPE gene
copies >300 Thous/g feces or CPnetE/F gene copies > 20 Thous/g feces,
the toxin may be contributing to diarrhea. In animals where the
number of copies of the gene is below the cut-off, this toxin is
unlikely to be contributing to diarrhea. Higher levels (>1000 Thous/g
feces) of the CPnetE/F toxin gene are associated with an increased
risk of hemorrhagic gastroenteritis.

EDIT: Found this article as well http://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/service...ns-enterotoxin

Just wanted to provide an update on Pax. He has not had a bowel movement in over 24 hours and ate the last 4 meals on his own, bland food. I suspect he may have a normal bowel movement tomorrow.

This is similar to what happened last week, he was fine for a little, and then it came back.

Thank you for the update.

Some good news there. So hope you **all** have a good night!

Good Afternoon, wanted to provide an update.

Pax has been eating all his meals on his own, and has had 3 normal bowel movements in the last 48 hours.

Pilot is also doing well so far, he's been eating chicken, plain skinless mash potatoes with a carrot and pea puree. His stool has been normal so far as well.

Pax will still undergo the endoscopy and biopsy procedure tomorrow. We think it's best to what's going on with him even though it's extremely expensive.

I hope he does well.

Oh my. Did the vet have insight into what the recovery from biopsy would be? How is his weight?

Separately, sounds like the pups had a good 24 to 48-hours. Hope you were all able to get some rest.

Thank you for taking the time to update; I know you have a lot on your mind.

He was close to 9lbs, he's probably 7.5 or close to 8lbs at the moment.

The biopsy will be performed via endoscopy so they will not be cutting him open or anything, and recovery *should* be quick from what I'm told.

I'm always very nervous when they go under anesthesia.

The endoscopy will be performed by our board certified internal medicine vet. I think that's as specialized as it gets when it comes to animal care.

Thanks.

I'm with you on the anesthesia. Sounds like you have the very best care coming his way. Gonna keep our prayers up and paws crossed over here.

It's such good news to know that he's able to eat and process his food.

From your comments, Pilot sounds like he may have rounded the corner.

Hope you all have a good night.

I'm sooooo happy there is some improvement!!! :love:

Ya know, based upon another thread that's going on here -- I have to mention Helicobacter infection with all the GI symptoms you've seen.

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/diges...-small-animals

Thinking about you guys; sending virtual hugs, crossed paws and hopeful blessings.

Pax is back home from the procedure and resting.

The internal medicine vet said everything went very well. She excitedly reported that she did not see any signs of tumors or cancer.

Her report stated the stomach and esophagus appears normal. Mild changes of the small intestines mucusoa (slightly reduced size of the villae/villus blunting).

We will now await the results of the biopsy.

Thank you all for the support so far! Very much appreciate it.

Hallelujah
 

Well, hallelujah. Such good news. He's quite a guy and you're quite a puppy parent.

Did the vet say how long you have to wait for the biopsy results?

Oh, I'm so happy for all of you. --KatysMom

Thank you :)

The biopsy results will come back in 3 to 5 days.

He is still taking metronidazole for a little while longer. The dosage was reduced from 50mg to 25mg.

So glad this went well :)! I sure hope you get some kind of answer.

Me too.

Unfortunately, Pax just had diarrhea this morning.

I’m not sure if it’s from the anesthesia and medicines from yesterday. He did eat dinner and breakfast though.

We’ll see what happens throughout the day.

Hi there,

Thank you for the update. Sorry to hear Pax had an uncool BM this morning. Hoping this was related to yesterday's procedure.

Give him a hug for me.

Update! Pax and Pilot had a good weekend.

Their appetite and bowel movements were all normal. They're eating chicken breast, boiled red mash potatoes with pureed carrots and peas, along with calcium and vitamin supplements. I plan on adding green beans into the mix this week.

Pax is still taking 25mg of the metronidazole (down from 50mg) a little while longer and the biopsy results should come back later this week

Pax has been a chronic paw licker. He likes to lick his especially when he's bored. However, one of his paws seemed quite red and irritated in the middle.

We've taken him to the vet in the past and they wanted to start him on anti depressants, which I declined.

I started applying diluted apple cider vinegar and gave him a Himalayan pink sea salt paw soak yesterday in hopes it will calm down the inflammation.

It could be a combination of some allergy and his chronic licking.

Unfortunately between their dentals in February, Pilot's pancreatitis in March, and this whole episode in April and May, I would like to avoid going to the vet for a little while!

Thank you for sharing that you all had a good weekend. Yeah Pax!!! He's had such a rough spell.

As Pax's results are due shortly, expect you'll speak with the vet's office shortly--either via phone call or in person. If the biopsy was arranged by the same vet's office that had previously recommended anti-depressants, you could use that interaction as an opportunity to ask whether or not now is the time to try the anti-depressants.

Those who've treated pups for Pax's underlying or suspected underlying conditions will know better than I whether the stepped up paw licking could be related to his more general circumstance.

Have included references to a few articles below.

Again, thank you for the update with good news. I'm so glad you can all be there together. --KatysMom


Janet Tobiassen Crosby, DVM, "Why Is My Dog Licking His Paws?" updated 2018 Jan 16 by thesprucePets.

Dermapaw, "Why dogs lick their paws" 2015 Sept 27

Peter Dobias, DVM, "Excessive Paw Licking in Dogs -- It May Not Be Allergies," published Innovative Veterinary Care, 2014 May 27

Dr. Justine A. Lee, DVM, DACVECC, "Why is My Dog Excessively Licking His Paws?" published Pet Health Network (n.d.?)

P.S. My late Katy was a paw-licker. In her case, the vet diagnosed an allergy. Treatment consisted of frequent Chlorhexidine shampoos and Benedryl as needed. Katy wasn't a big fan of the bath, but she did like the shampooing (especially the long massage).

Thanks KatysMom! Greatly appreciate your words of encouragement throughout this ordeal!!

Pax has been licking his paws for quite some time (well before this), if I distract him or tell him no, he usually stops.

The internal medicine vet is not the same vet who performed the biopsy on Pax.

His brother Pilot has had redness between his paws in the past and they told us to give him children's sugar free benadryl for a few days. I think they have environmental allergies such as detergents and some types of pollen or grass.

I read that chicken could be an allergy as well but true food allergies are actually very rare. Their main protein in their home cooked food is fat free chicken breast to help avoid pancreatitis from fattier meats.

Here's an article on Benadryl that might guide you further.

Jessica Volgelsang, DVM, "Can I give my dog Benadryl and if so, how much?" (n.d.?) PetMD.

We used the clear liquid form and administered via oral syringe.

Paw licking is a cardinal sign of allergies. In dogs, the histamine reaction causes an actual physical sensation in their paws - very uncomfortable - this is why they need to lick/chew the paws. Yep, food allergies only account for about 10-15% of dog allergies - most are environmental. However, chicken IS the most common protein allergy in dogs who do have food allergies.

Benadryl is not a great treatment for allergies. Because of its short half-life, it has to be given every 4-6hrs to remain therapeutic (if it even IS therapeutic in the first place, that is). Other OTC meds for dogs are Zyrtec and Claritin - both are 24 hr meds (once a day). Again though, rarely super effective in alleviating symptoms in dogs.

Many of us here have yorkies w/ terrible allergies bc this is so very common in yorkies now -- and most of find that the relief comes from either Apoquel or Atopica. My Marcel has been on both (currently Apoquel) - and both made a tremendous difference in his quality of life -- he used to wake up at 1am at times just to lick his paws :(. Both of those meds affect the immune system cells.

The redness in the paws you're seeing could be from moist skin and irritation (from licking) -or- could be signs of a yeast infection (again, mostly due to excessive moisture, but also allergy related).

More on Atopica and Apoquel here: https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/di...allergies.html

Thank you for this information! I was doing research last night and read that Chlorhexidine can help with possible skin infections and/or allergies. There's shampoo and wipes made by Douxo, I was going to give this a try and see if it helps any. Have you heard anything regarding this?

If topical application might help for the paw licking. I use Xymox or Zymox?? Shampoo and conditioner that deals with the irritation in my dog. I also rinse his paws often with the rinse and that stops the paw licking. Good luck.

As with dottiesyrky's post, I don't know if a topical treatment alone (including chlorhexidine) will be effective. Separately, Katy's vet put her on the chlorhexidine shampoo and Benadryl. (But see Wylie\'s Mom\'s comments above for explanation that Benadryl is inferior to prescription products, would seem especially Apoquel.)

The last of brand of chlorhexidine shampoos Katy used was Douxo.

I have read about the Douxo wipes, but have no experience with them.

I agree with Katysmom that topicals may not work. But the topical I use is good for bacterial and yeast infections and sure works for my dog. I tend to use it if his paws smell of popcorn or if they get wet and smelly.

Is this it dottiesyrky? (link is to Chewy.com)

Zymox Veterinary Strength Enzymatic Dog & Cat Shampoo

Attachment 412497

Yes it is, but there is also the rinse I use from the same manufacturer. Don’t know where I got it though. I use the rinse to clean paws between baths. It smells so good too!

I just looked on Chewy again, and they do the rinse too.