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-   -   Weird compression / dent in skull. Is this normal skull structure?! (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sick-injured-emergencies-talk/237310-weird-compression-dent-skull-normal-skull-structure.html)

Xuanz 11-21-2011 09:12 AM

Weird compression / dent in skull. Is this normal skull structure?!
 
Hello everyone,

I was petting and Ruffles yesturday and i realised there was a small compression or dent in his skull prob a size of a nikel, he doesnt feel pain or has any reaction when i press it or rub it. It cant be seen by naked eye but can be felt. Is this normal skull structure though i seriously doubt so but i really hope it is? Pls help me feel your little ones skull to see if they have it too!? Its located right at the top of the head in the middle of his little ears but prob 1 cm in front of the years. All the vet visits has cleared him although the last one was done when he's 14 weeks. He has all vaccinations as well.


Ive got him for a month and his now 16 weeks+. So far he hasnt has any problems he's super active and has no change in behaviour except that he doesnt wan to eat his food unless he's really hungry which i read that its pretty common in yorkies. Im really scare that something might happen to him! Should i bring him to the vet!? Pls tell me his ok!
Thank you all for listening.

gemy 11-21-2011 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xuanz (Post 3735165)
Hello everyone,

I was petting and Ruffles yesturday and i realised there was a small compression or dent in his skull prob a size of a nikel, he doesnt feel pain or has any reaction when i press it or rub it. It cant be seen by naked eye but can be felt. Is this normal skull structure though i seriously doubt so but i really hope it is? Pls help me feel your little ones skull to see if they have it too!? Its located right at the top of the head in the middle of his little ears but prob 1 cm in front of the years. All the vet visits has cleared him although the last one was done when he's 14 weeks. He has all vaccinations as well.


Ive got him for a month and his now 16 weeks+. So far he hasnt has any problems he's super active and has no change in behaviour except that he doesnt wan to eat his food unless he's really hungry which i read that its pretty common in yorkies. Im really scare that something might happen to him! Should i bring him to the vet!? Pls tell me his ok!
Thank you all for listening.

With this one it is best to bring your pet into the vet. Show him/her where the soft spot is. although the vet should have checked on your first vet visit for "open fontanel", it might not have happened.

This type of thing could be anything or nothing; best to have an expert examine your pup.

Kudos for you for noticing; it is so important that dog owners make a regular practise of "petting their dog everywhere":)

It is good

shodanusmc 11-21-2011 11:42 AM

Good idea for sure to have it checked. I took Marge in a few weeks ago to have her head examined.

gemy 11-21-2011 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shodanusmc (Post 3735287)
Good idea for sure to have it checked. I took Marge in a few weeks ago to have her head examined.

Awh now I heard there was a "two for one special on" cough cough, did you have your head examined too?;)

Bitsy 11-21-2011 11:48 AM

Sounds like open fontanel (open soft spot) to me too. I agree about taking your pup to the vet so that they can examine him.

I had a puppy with an open fontanel and it had a bad conclusion. (I don't want to scare you at all. But just wanted you to know that I had first hand experience with it.) How is his hearing and hearing and smelling, etc.?

My first vet didn't notice the large open fontanel on my puppy (even though we knew he was at least mostly if not completely deaf)...I have since changed vets. This is something that should be noticed by a vet at a puppy visit.

Keep us posted and best luck to you.

Rhetts_mama 11-21-2011 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 3735293)
Awh now I heard there was a "two for one special on" cough cough, did you have your head examined too?;)

Snort, giggle, giggle.

To the OP,
Absolutely bring it to your vets attention. It may be nothing, but it could also be associated with several other conditions including hydrocephalus. Good luck, I hope everything is ok.

Xuanz 11-21-2011 12:05 PM

Thank you all for replying... Is this a serious condition? Will it close when he's older? I am worried sick... =C I'll definately bring him to the vet first thing tmr.. because i dun have a car and i cant go anywhere as my dh was at work... I'll call and ask the vet first. He seemed to have no problems with seeing and hearing. I guess smelling as well. How to know if he has problems with sense of smell? He is as active as usual with no problems and nth that i know of except for not wanting to eat much... Isit normal for a pup to walk and run sideways as in not in a vertical line? I have a friend who had a yorkie that is 2 years old now, she told me that her yorkie did that when she was young. so im not that concern then but now i am..

Patti 11-21-2011 12:28 PM

Sounds like open fontanel but your vet needs to diagnose her. My Roxie has it. The breeder told me about it when I got her. Roxie's never completely closed but did get smaller. The vet said to watch that she doesn't hit that spot on anything or get hit on that area. What I do is keep her bow over the spot so it protects it a little. She is 4 years ld now and hasn't had any issues. Thank God. Please keep us posted.

Bitsy 11-21-2011 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xuanz (Post 3735326)
Thank you all for replying... Is this a serious condition? Will it close when he's older? I am worried sick... =C I'll definately bring him to the vet first thing tmr.. because i dun have a car and i cant go anywhere as my dh was at work... I'll call and ask the vet first. He seemed to have no problems with seeing and hearing. I guess smelling as well. How to know if he has problems with sense of smell? He is as active as usual with no problems and nth that i know of except for not wanting to eat much... Isit normal for a pup to walk and run sideways as in not in a vertical line? I have a friend who had a yorkie that is 2 years old now, she told me that her yorkie did that when she was young. so im not that concern then but now i am..

Open fontanel became a problem for my pup because he had hydrocephalus (water on the brain.) The hydrocephalus is what caused the neurological problems. First he couldn't hear...then we suspected he couldn't see well, and at the end he couldn't even smell to find his food. It was really awful. Poor little guy.

It's good to see Patti's story so that you don't get too upset. Some dogs can have an open fontanel and not have hydrocephalus. The hydrocephalus can be an increasing problem though, as more and more water puts pressure on the brain. I'm a little concerned with him not running in a straight line. Maybe that is common, but it is not something that I have seen with my dogs. Again, I HIGHLY recommend you take him to a really good vet and maybe even a neurologist if the vet recommends it, or you want to be sure. I would definitely take him to a neurologist if any other issues come up.

Not every case is the same. I don't want to upset you too much. Just want to encourage you to get to the vet ASAP so that you can know what you are dealing with either way.

Blessings to you. I'll say a prayer for your little guy.

gemy 11-21-2011 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xuanz (Post 3735326)
Thank you all for replying... Is this a serious condition? Will it close when he's older? I am worried sick... =C I'll definately bring him to the vet first thing tmr.. because i dun have a car and i cant go anywhere as my dh was at work... I'll call and ask the vet first. He seemed to have no problems with seeing and hearing. I guess smelling as well. How to know if he has problems with sense of smell? He is as active as usual with no problems and nth that i know of except for not wanting to eat much... Isit normal for a pup to walk and run sideways as in not in a vertical line? I have a friend who had a yorkie that is 2 years old now, she told me that her yorkie did that when she was young. so im not that concern then but now i am..

You are on the right track, go to your vet, and along with the head/dent/depression, speak about the running sideways. Do you notice it all the time?, only some of the time?, after pup has eaten?

Yorkies can be notorious for being pickey eaters, how much does he weight right now?

Also if you have a video camera, record his walk/run sideways.

Don't worry so much, wait till your vet visit tomorrow, come prepared with a list of questions. Also if your pup hasn't been Bile Acid Tested, it's advisable to do so..this is not an expensive test. It is recommended to do for pups at 16wks old, and then repeated at 6mths old.

Xuanz 11-21-2011 01:23 PM

Thanks again for all of the replies. I just called the vet's clinic and scheduled an appointment for tmr. When i call the clinic i think it was the nurse who picked up the call and she told me that it could just be a soft spot which will close up when his older and told me that it was not really necessary to go down and have a check. o.o But i insisted that i would like him checked.. Anyone thinks i should change a clinic or just see how it goes? his sense of hearing is pretty good because he will wake up at the slightest noises, and he can see pretty well. How do i test his sense of smell?
Is there any specific thing i should ask the vet or get her to check? Any other conditions that will be linked to this problem other than the hydrocephalus ?

Thank you again.

Bitsy 11-21-2011 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xuanz (Post 3735419)
Thanks again for all of the replies. I just called the vet's clinic and scheduled an appointment for tmr. When i call the clinic i think it was the nurse who picked up the call and she told me that it could just be a soft spot which will close up when his older and told me that it was not really necessary to go down and have a check. o.o But i insisted that i would like him checked.. Anyone thinks i should change a clinic or just see how it goes? his sense of hearing is pretty good because he will wake up at the slightest noises, and he can see pretty well. How do i test his sense of smell?
Is there any specific thing i should ask the vet or get her to check? Any other conditions that will be linked to this problem other than the hydrocephalus ?

Thank you again.

I don't know how to test for the sense of smell. With the First Peyton it was obvious that he couldn't see his food, but could smell it, and then it became obvious that he couldn't even smell it. I think it is one of those things that is just obvious.

Have you been with this vet long? Do you have a good history with them? Maybe you have a neighbor that is a good dog owner and you can ask about local vets that he/she recommends? Getting the video of the dog running sideways is great advice from Gemy. It might help your doctor to see it.

I am fortunate that there is an excellent Veterinary teaching hospital at Purdue University, which is just a little over an hour away. Maybe you could see if there is one local for you? The benefit for us was that he was able to be seen by the ER vet doctor, and then the neurologist the very next day because they are all in one location.

Please feel free to ask any questions. We are here to support and help you. It is probably not anything to be too worried about...but it is good that you are aware of it and are getting him seen so quickly. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Xuanz 11-21-2011 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 3735397)
You are on the right track, go to your vet, and along with the head/dent/depression, speak about the running sideways. Do you notice it all the time?, only some of the time?, after pup has eaten?

Yorkies can be notorious for being pickey eaters, how much does he weight right now?

Also if you have a video camera, record his walk/run sideways.

Don't worry so much, wait till your vet visit tomorrow, come prepared with a list of questions. Also if your pup hasn't been Bile Acid Tested, it's advisable to do so..this is not an expensive test. It is recommended to do for pups at 16wks old, and then repeated at 6mths old.

Thank you for your reply..
The sideway run happens most of the time... He can walk vertical lines when he's walking normally without any specific destination and he usually trots instead of walk like he has springs on his legs.. But when he sees a toy or he runs from a place to another with a specific target he tends to run sideways or a curved line instead of vertical. I think i got too used to it that i didnt really go notice it anymore but my friends just mentioned it yesturday that he walked sideways so im sure he still do that. I'll keep a close watch on him and try to video it and post it here if possible. Ive seen him walk sidways like a "crab" of cos not straight but horzontally but this "crabstyle"is not often onli seen it < 5 times since i got him.

He weights 2.4 pounds, he's pretty small i wish he'll get bigger. when i got him he weight 1.9 pounds. it seem that his structure got bigger but his weight didnt.. he eats but not the recommended amount. I feel him wellness for small breed puppy. It is recommened to feed him 1/2 cup a day. but he onli eats 1/4 cup sometimes 1/3 cup. i feed him 3 times a day. im currently switching him to blue bluffalo wilderness for puppy mixing in a little bit a day as the wellness seem to be giving him runny stools occassionally. but he picks out the blue wilderness to eat from the bowl.

What is the Bile Acid test for?
Here a a list of vaccinations and test he's done
-parvo virus
- distemper
-adenovirus
-parainfluenza
- lepto
- rabies
- has been dewormed
- fecal test done
- will start heart worm on first dec.
- will start flea and tick prevention on first dec.

Are there any test that i had missed or is good to have?
Any specific questions i should ask the vet?

Sorry for the long post and thank you everyone who has spent the time to read and reply...

Xuanz 11-21-2011 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitsy (Post 3735438)
I don't know how to test for the sense of smell. With the First Peyton it was obvious that he couldn't see his food, but could smell it, and then it became obvious that he couldn't even smell it. I think it is one of those things that is just obvious.

Have you been with this vet long? Do you have a good history with them? Maybe you have a neighbor that is a good dog owner and you can ask about local vets that he/she recommends? Getting the video of the dog running sideways is great advice from Gemy. It might help your doctor to see it.

I am fortunate that there is an excellent Veterinary teaching hospital at Purdue University, which is just a little over an hour away. Maybe you could see if there is one local for you? The benefit for us was that he was able to be seen by the ER vet doctor, and then the neurologist the very next day because they are all in one location.

Please feel free to ask any questions. We are here to support and help you. It is probably not anything to be too worried about...but it is good that you are aware of it and are getting him seen so quickly. :thumbup: :thumbup:


Im sorry to hear about Peyton is he alright now.? and thank you for sharing your experiences. Ruffles is my first doggy. Ive never had a dog before so there are alot of things i do not know even though i did much research before i got Ruffles it seem that i still have much to learn.. Ive been with the vet since i got Ruffles which isnt long onli 2 visits to the vets so far.. My friend who has a yorkie also brings her yorkie to see this same vet.

The little one really stole my heart the first time i saw him. Now every little thing that happened to him can make my day or break my heart. I hope everything is well.. I hope im not overreacting.. I just wish that he can be healthy and happy...

Bitsy 11-21-2011 01:58 PM

Honestly, I think the regular vet will just feel the open spot and confirm that it is an open fontanel. You will probably need a referral to a neurological vet. I would go ahead and get the referral regardless if your vet recommends it or not. A referral will at least give you a name and number of someone to go see if other symptoms arise or if things get worse.

I wish I could tell you more, but I only have experience with my situation, which was tragic. So, on one hand I want you to get your pup to the neurologist ASAP and on the other hand I don't want to worry you too much incase it is not causing a problem.

Between the two choices, I'd rather you erred on the side of caution. If I were you, I would take him to a neurologist right away. Once damage is done to the brain, it is not reversible. My puppy could hear when he was born...the breeder was sure of that based on how he responded to sounds. First his hearing went, then the other losses as well. I ended up taking him to the ER vet because of how lethargic he was and because he vomited. I just knew things weren't right. By then, too much damage had been caused from the hydrocephalus. I don't know if there would have been a different outcome of he had been diagnosed sooner. I only had him two weeks.

Feel free ask any questions. PLEASE keep us updated about him as we will worry for him until we hear back from you. We will keep praying for him as well.

Bitsy 11-21-2011 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xuanz (Post 3735456)
Im sorry to hear about Peyton is he alright now.? and thank you for sharing your experiences. Ruffles is my first doggy. Ive never had a dog before so there are alot of things i do not know even though i did much research before i got Ruffles it seem that i still have much to learn.. Ive been with the vet since i got Ruffles which isnt long onli 2 visits to the vets so far.. My friend who has a yorkie also brings her yorkie to see this same vet.

The little one really stole my heart the first time i saw him. Now every little thing that happened to him can make my day or break my heart. I hope everything is well.. I hope im not overreacting.. I just wish that he can be healthy and happy...

Looks like we were typing at the same time. My "First Peyton" did not make it. He had such severe hydrocephalus that his body just started shutting down. I had taken him to Purdue University small animal hospital (they are one of the best in the country) and had him seen by the ER. They were able to stabilize him enough to look inside his head with an ultrasound the next morning. That is when we discovered the severity of the hydrocephalus. He was suffering badly because his body couldn't regulate his potassium levels. Also, he had permanently lost his sense of hearing, sight and smell. I had to make the decision to let him rest permanently. It was one of the hardest things I ever had to do, but it was the right thing to do for my little guy. I had only had him two weeks....but he will ALWAYS have a place in my heart. He was a very special puppy...I never knew I could feel so much love in such a short amount of time.

His story is tragic and not every pup with an open fontanel has this problem. As Patti said, her dog has it and is living a full wonderful life.

I'm sorry to share my story, as I am sure it will upset and worry you more, but I think it is better for you to know how important it is to get this looked into right away.

Bitsy 11-21-2011 02:06 PM

I wanted to let you know that I did get a second "Peyton" a few months later. I named him the same name as a tribute to the First Peyton. The second Peyton is such a sweetie and I know the First Peyton is looking down happily from Rainbow Bridge on all of us.

Xuanz 11-21-2011 02:24 PM

Im sorry to hear that about Peyton.. Im sure he's happy where he is now.. I really hoped Ruffles will be alright... He's taking his nap now sleeping like a baby.. I'll be devastated should anything happen to him.. I'll ask about the possible complications and prob ask them if they know of any neuro doc that i can have the number and all.. I'll get back tmr after Ruffles had seen the doc... Thank you for your help!

Bitsy 11-21-2011 02:27 PM

You are welcome. I'll keep Ruffles in my prayers. Hope the visit goes well.

bailie 11-22-2011 01:25 PM

thinking bout you and your baby ruffles,keep us posted x

Xuanz 11-22-2011 02:13 PM

Hello everyone, hank you for putting us in your thoughts and worrying. we are back from the vets.. The vets told me its a soft spot and it has no hydrocephalus.. because he says if it is we'll be able to feel that in the soft spot it is swollen and tender and the head will be dome-shaped.. but for his case its not of a concern and he says it might close up as he gets bigger and there no much problems. And he told me the possibility of getting any problems due to it is very low and that i should just be careful and not let him bump his head on anything. I told the vet about the walking side ways and got Ruffles to walk around and run around the examination room and he says its pretty normal from what he see and some puppies are like that and theres nothing to worry about. Phew (But I'll still keep a lookout for any abnormalities)

But Ruffles vomited once after we got back from the vet. This is the first time he vomited. So i called the clinic again and they told me his probably too overwhelmed and i have to keep a look out if he vomits more than 4 times he'll has to be brought in and if he vomits again he's to be feed some soft boiled food ( chicken) for the 1 to 2 days. because i had him take a bordetella vaccination as i intend to bring him for grooming soon. He had his nails clipped as well, which resulted in a bleeding nail because he struggles too much and very violently... But the breeding was stopped instantly by the vet with taptum( i dunno how to spell)
powder. My poor Ruffles (=C)

And one of the nurses told me that Ruffles is actually pretty aggressive and dominant as he bit her when she tried to touch his head and growled and tries to bite when they wanted to cut his nail, i know this is bad behavior but does any other puppies do that?.. But he doesnt do that to me or my husband though he sometimes will try to but dare not he'll do it when i tried to clean his ears and trim his hair on the paws and under belly... But he's getting better now... How do we solve this.. Ive been touching him everywhere everyday even his paw and his nails his face. But he just doesnt like it (treats lure doesnt really work)... The nurse told me that if he withdrawn his paw from me that i should say "no' in a dissatisfied tone and then take his paw and continue what i was doing, in a way force him to get use to it.. . But with Ruffles that small sometimes i just cant bring myself to do it. When he struggles he'll wiggle and wiggle like its e end of the world and uses his leg to kick his way out in an extreme way that i think he might break his bones if it continues.. i tried to hold him tighter and firmer and said 'no' but he usually dun stop till he gets his way... What am i gonna do about this...!! ( one thing about Ruffles, he doesn't really fancy treats, especially when he's really traumatized he'll just snub the treat.)

And now his sleeping, and refused to eat when i feed him.. Should i just go ahead and boil some chicken breast and feed him. because his vomited almost all of his breakfast as i can still see some undigested kibble...
oh i have one more question its about weighing scales, there's this big metal scale in the vet that measures Rufffles as 2.4 pounds(pet smart has one too and had the same measurements.) but the doc used a small scale and measured him as 2.8 pounds and told me this was more accurate becaue its more Suitable for his size. Does anyone has this encounter? which weight is he exactly. (i wish its 2.8)!

My poor Baby hopes he gets better after his nap.. =C

Bitsy 11-22-2011 03:25 PM

Glad things went well today. Hopefully your vet is right and it is nothing to worry about.

As for the swelling on the soft spot, I have heard that as well. However, my First Peyton did not have swelling out of his soft spot at all. All of the pressure was inward, on the brain. How are his eyes? Sometimes dogs with hydrocephalus have eyes that look outward to the sides more than is a normal. A little is normal I think, but not a lot.

Thanks for the update. Just keep a close eye on him. Hope his tummy feels better soon. Hugs to you both.

Dianamartin 11-22-2011 10:54 PM

The same thing was going on with my yorkie at 9 weeks old when I got him. The vet said it's normal because after all they are still "babies" and it will eventually close on it's own. It's a "fontanel" . He is now 17 weeks and I can't really feel it anymore so it must have closed. His head is hard too, we were playing and I threw his rubber ball in the air and it bonked him on the head right there. HE WAS fine!

gemy 11-23-2011 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xuanz (Post 3736989)
Hello everyone, hank you for putting us in your thoughts and worrying. we are back from the vets.. The vets told me its a soft spot and it has no hydrocephalus.. because he says if it is we'll be able to feel that in the soft spot it is swollen and tender and the head will be dome-shaped.. but for his case its not of a concern and he says it might close up as he gets bigger and there no much problems. And he told me the possibility of getting any problems due to it is very low and that i should just be careful and not let him bump his head on anything. I told the vet about the walking side ways and got Ruffles to walk around and run around the examination room and he says its pretty normal from what he see and some puppies are like that and theres nothing to worry about. Phew (But I'll still keep a lookout for any abnormalities)

But Ruffles vomited once after we got back from the vet. This is the first time he vomited. So i called the clinic again and they told me his probably too overwhelmed and i have to keep a look out if he vomits more than 4 times he'll has to be brought in and if he vomits again he's to be feed some soft boiled food ( chicken) for the 1 to 2 days. because i had him take a bordetella vaccination as i intend to bring him for grooming soon. He had his nails clipped as well, which resulted in a bleeding nail because he struggles too much and very violently... But the breeding was stopped instantly by the vet with taptum( i dunno how to spell)
powder. My poor Ruffles (=C)

And one of the nurses told me that Ruffles is actually pretty aggressive and dominant as he bit her when she tried to touch his head and growled and tries to bite when they wanted to cut his nail, i know this is bad behavior but does any other puppies do that?.. But he doesnt do that to me or my husband though he sometimes will try to but dare not he'll do it when i tried to clean his ears and trim his hair on the paws and under belly... But he's getting better now... How do we solve this.. Ive been touching him everywhere everyday even his paw and his nails his face. But he just doesnt like it (treats lure doesnt really work)... The nurse told me that if he withdrawn his paw from me that i should say "no' in a dissatisfied tone and then take his paw and continue what i was doing, in a way force him to get use to it.. . But with Ruffles that small sometimes i just cant bring myself to do it. When he struggles he'll wiggle and wiggle like its e end of the world and uses his leg to kick his way out in an extreme way that i think he might break his bones if it continues.. i tried to hold him tighter and firmer and said 'no' but he usually dun stop till he gets his way... What am i gonna do about this...!! ( one thing about Ruffles, he doesn't really fancy treats, especially when he's really traumatized he'll just snub the treat.)

And now his sleeping, and refused to eat when i feed him.. Should i just go ahead and boil some chicken breast and feed him. because his vomited almost all of his breakfast as i can still see some undigested kibble...
oh i have one more question its about weighing scales, there's this big metal scale in the vet that measures Rufffles as 2.4 pounds(pet smart has one too and had the same measurements.) but the doc used a small scale and measured him as 2.8 pounds and told me this was more accurate becaue its more Suitable for his size. Does anyone has this encounter? which weight is he exactly. (i wish its 2.8)!

My poor Baby hopes he gets better after his nap.. =C

So sorry I'm just getting back to this thread today. About your earlier question; BAT tests liver function. How well your liver is functioning. There is a problem Yorkies are susceptible to and it is called Liver Shunt.
There are many threads on here about it; it is a simple blood draw; once after your dog has fasted, then a second draw 2hrs after eating.

Now in terms of the food; by all means boil up some rice and chicken, you can add a small tsp of plain yogurt too to a tsp of rice and chicken. If he keeps this down, then a couple of hrs later, repeat, etc. What I do once tummy has settled is then to freeze the leftovers to be available next time with upset tummy.
In terms of regular kibble food; you can try grating a tiny bit of Parmesan cheese over the food.

Nail clipping can be a challenge with these wee ones. What you can do, is to wrap your puppy very well in a towel, leaving out only the one paw, you can also use a knee high nylon, and place that over the paw, the nails will poke through, but the fur will be held back so that you see the nails clearly. If he has dew claws don't forget to clip them. They are usually found higher up on the outside of the paw. Check for front and back dew claws.

In terms of your vet visit, did you get a referral to a neurologist? It is something I would ask for, and seriously consider taking my pup to one.


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