Crazy, neurotic...tomatoe, tomato. :)

Coco's latest test was the first time she had abnormal pre and post. Her pre-tests had previously been normal. The latest results were 18 pre and 70 post. I would be frightened to have them tested after a month or so of "regular" diet. However because of that "regular" diet and the loose stools here and there, specifically with lamb, we decided to go ahead with the liver biopsy.

Everything happens for a reason!

Otherwise, even though I signed up here back in October, I would have never known there was such a wonderful forum. Foolish am I to wait until an issue to utilize such an awesome resource. Thank you all so much for sharing your kinds words and experiences so far!

:ghug::yorkietal

double posts
 

Sorry about the "double posts".

When my first didn't appear for sometime this morning, I sent an abbreviated, paraphased second version....y'all got both!! WOOHOO. hahaha, so sorry.

You know some may say crazy or neurotic . . . I like to think we are all just, well . . very thorough. Or, let's say . . . . well-informed.

Ha!

My Vet probably says the same things about me.

I always love to hear how others are managing as well. That way, you don't feel alone and it doesn't seem so unmanageable.

ok posted this info on wrong liver thread meant for this thread so here is the link to info i posted for this thread

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...er-issues.html

i had just finished reading your posts when i noticed this one. thank you. i have joined the liver shunt and mvd yahoo group. we did the biopsy, because my vet here felt Coco had a shunt and the specialist at U Penn felt that she was perfectly fine given all other labs were normal and she was asymptomatic...she never mentioned or seemed to consider mvd. i don't like putting my babies under anesthsia for any reason, but with the biopsy or ultrasound either would have required it. after speaking to one of the in-take nurses at UT (i was going there if it was a shunt), my husband and i decided on the biopsy for what we thought would be a shunt diagnosis. we are still fairly novice to liver shunts & mvd...although not for long. after losing the one baby so suddenly last year, i am fearful of not doing the right, best thing. my inexperience is why i am seeking information, so i ask the right questions and do the best things for her. i agree about invasive procedures, but i feel that sometimes to gather the best information they are necessary. Elissa was correct, you do have a wealth of knowledge in regards to this topic. i truly appreciate all of your information. where is Dr. Dodds located, is a phone consult an option? as for RAW diets, i meet those that swear by it and those who completely oppose it. thank you again for replying to this thread. any and all information shared is greatly appreciated. :)

When you say anesthesia would have been required for a biopsy or ultrasound, so you mean an ultrasound guided biopsy or just one to visualize the liver? IF it's the latter, anesthesia does not have to be used unless they just cannot hold it still (which is not the majority of the time).

I'm not really into the biopsy route if the dog isn't already opened up (for apay or whatever), but there are other things that can cause high bile acids and it's really the only way to know for sure. I'm thinking of one (not too common in dogs though) that would require higher protein, not lower. So while (imo) a biopsy should not be rushed into, there are a few cases that it is needed with high bile acids if things aren't adding up or whatever...

here is dr dodds info Hemopet/Hemolife, HEMOPET a full animal blood bank, Diagnostic Laboratory, Adoption and Consultation. She is in so california but she consults vets, specialists, and pet owners all over the world. She has been studying blood work for 40 years and i trust her as she is very conservative in her approach to this profession. I probably would have trusted as you did in the past but since learning alot more i tend to question more now. Ultrasound is very hard to see a shunt unless the person is very experienced with shunts and even then not real easy. Scintigraphy is most accurate not ultrasound but that is only in dogs well over 100 having symptoms in my opinion and why i did not do with my dog like vet recommended. Dogs do not have to be sedated to do an ultrasound as they did not sedate my dog for ultrasound for pancreatitis.

I am glad you are joining those groups as they taught me everything about liver disease and are some very sharp pet owners. I find I learn the most from pet owners dealing with a specific disease day in and day out as they do alot of research and educate themselves to take better care of their dog with an illness. They take the time also to help other pet owners and provide a wonderful support group as well so why I recommend yahoogroups to many pet owners with dogs with different health issues as you not only need info but you also need support sometimes to get through it daily in more serious diseases until you can get the dog balanced and in a good place. They take the time to explain things thoroughly that most vets or specialists do not have the time to do sadly.

Dr. Hess (from U Penn) had just expressed that if they did the ultrasound, I would have to leave her overnight because of the anesthesia so they could monitor her. I wasn't comfortable there, so after I heard leave Coco overnight, I told her not today. I wanted to speak to my husband first. I had no intention of leaving Coco with them, so I didn't question further. The trip to U Penn was only to appease my husband because he was in the room when our reg vet had stated they (U Penn) did great work with liver shunts. He had told me if I wasn't comfortable after meeting the doctors there, we would go to UT. But after speaking to our vet again, a holistic vet (who really encouraged the RAW diet, looked at Coco's labs and said nothing was wrong with her), changing her diet back to regular we decided to do the biopsy when she had her baby teeth pulled. With the switch back to the reg diet her stools had become quite loose and I began questioning the opinions of the specialist at U Penn and the holistic vet.

That is how we came to the diagnosis of MVD.

but wouldn't this other disease exhibit low protein or something else on blood work to determine the difference. I know you have stated this before and it is myfairlacy dog so i really wish she would post or maybe there is a thread you can link to this as i really want to learn more about this to possibly change my mind on this but until i know all the info about it I still feel strongly against biopsy even with a spay. Do you know what the disease is called Crystal as i have not read about this on any dog group and really want to know more about this. I can pm her on another group she is more active on unless you can find the thread as that would be great. I am always open to hear both sides so I can better understand why people do invasive procedures. I am much more conservative in my approach to things than some so I have to feel convinced to do something so just because dd has high bats I would not run out and have a biopsy done on her with no symptoms when she is under for a procedure in future to confirm mvd. Now if she was sick and we could not figure out what the heck was making her so sick and low protein diet not working and sam-e, milk thistle, lactulose,etc and she was still real sick - skin turning yellow her vomitting, etc then heck ya I would do further testing to see what the heck was going on to get her better.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...me-advice.html

Page 9, post 127 for results.

Not common in dogs and weight loss would be likely.

It is just one possible thing that could cause bile acids to elevate (and possibly look like MVD). But as I said, I would not jump to biopsy with a Yorkie who had moderately elevated bile acids. Ellie had one b/c she was under already and her abdomen was open. When dealing with an asymptomatic dog or a dog with symptoms that are usually seem with MVD, then a biopsy definitely is questionable at best. It is just that there are a few occasions when it may be a good idea.

And it is a bit concerning to think that the high BA in this case was not MVD although it may have looked similar. So if a low protein diet would have been chosen, that may not have been in Lacy's best interest either. So just sayin' there are always exceptions to the rule and it can be a hard decision.

to the OP: I'd be very concerned if a vet wanted to use anesthesia for a regular u/s!!!

like i said, i didn't feel comfortable there. and Coco had been on a low protein diet since Oct and denamarin since last July and her post bat almost tripled and she had had her first elevated pre bat. deciding to do the biopsy was a struggle, but i had 2 different opinions from 3 sources-1 of which i have dealt with for over 9 years and the other 2 came highly recommended. i was being told to resume normal life and carry on, nothing was wrong with her....then my vet feeling she may have a shunt. being left under the impression that the biopsy or ultrasound (not completely clear what U Penn meant) would require anesthesia, we choose what we felt would provide us the most definite answer. how do you determine it if was right or wrong to do? how much could i have hurt her feeding her incorrectly....i mean 6 months worth of damage would be significant i think.

so right or wrong, we felt this an exception, did the biopsy and we're glad we did. there is a definite answer. not having a baby with mvd before and losing one to a shunt, i can make an informed course of action and provide her with the best possible life with the help of the new support systems this has lead me to utilize and find. so even if a biopsy was a bad decision, it can't be entirely bad if the results improve her life going forward. just my opinion and feelings.

thank you everyone for all your shared information, i am certain you can expect future questions from me going forward. everyone has been so helpful and kind in sharing their experiences, information, and resources. :)

IMO, in this case it was the right decision...
And that is why I say sometimes they are necessary b/c all dogs are different.

ok going to read that thread later as really want to see this one so thanks Crystal as ever since you mentioned it I have been wanting to read that.

I agree sedation for xrays or ultrasound is of concern especially with dogs with liver issues as i try to minimize that but they do need dentals so I do for that since she did ok under anesthesia but if she reacted i would just do non-anesthetic then at that point. DD is a total spaz and when she hurt her leg they said she was an angel getting xrays - i had to check to make sure they did not give me the wrong dog though lolllll