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-   Sick & Injured / Emergencies Talk (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sick-injured-emergencies-talk/)
-   -   Liver shunt/mvd - dr center (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sick-injured-emergencies-talk/181988-liver-shunt-mvd-dr-center.html)

dwerten 08-20-2009 07:54 AM
Liver shunt/mvd - dr center
 
someone just posted on a group i am on about dr center's treatment for dogs with liver shunt not having corrective surgery is an option and was curious if anyone here has heard of this as I thought if a dog has a shunt and has symptoms they should have surgery while healthy to correct the shunt but someone posted this and just curious as i know alot on here are very well versed with dr center and dr tobias just as i am and wanted to know if this was something new in her research. The referred to sometimes if shunt is corrected then there is a chance of getting another shunt

also is texas a&m doing protein c tests ? as i thought all were being done at cornell?

magicgenie 08-20-2009 08:11 AM
Yes, I have heard of this---
 
and gotten bashed over and over again for mentioning it. Thank you for bring it up. Dr. Center does promote the more conservative medical management while considering all options. Surgery is risky and doesn't always work, and some very elderly dogs have been found to have lived just fine with shunts without surgery.

drabinowitz43 08-20-2009 08:18 AM
Joey had liver shunt surgery in March and is now a wonderful, healthy puppy. His BAT just came back in the normal range and he takes lactulose and eats a special diet, but that's it. He has become so active and much more alert. BTW, my vet was able to draw the blood for the Protein C test in his office and send it to Cornell for analysis. I didn't have to drive up there. I think each situation is different, but Joey had no symptoms that I was aware of, but it turned out he had bladder stones from the toxins in his blood and slept a lot. Thanks to my proactive vet, we caught the problem early while he was young and now he can lead a relatively normal life. "Medical management" which the breeder would've opted for, if she would even have done that, would've eventually led to an early death.

magicgenie 08-20-2009 09:16 AM
all rightie---
 
but I thought the objective of surgery was to eliminate the need for medical management and special diet. Joey had surgery and still needs all that? Who said he would die without surgery? What were his BAT results after he went on medical management but before surgery?

manolos mom 08-20-2009 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2764611)
someone just posted on a group i am on about dr center's treatment for dogs with liver shunt not having corrective surgery is an option and was curious if anyone here has heard of this as I thought if a dog has a shunt and has symptoms they should have surgery while healthy to correct the shunt but someone posted this and just curious as i know alot on here are very well versed with dr center and dr tobias just as i am and wanted to know if this was something new in her research. The referred to sometimes if shunt is corrected then there is a chance of getting another shunt

also is texas a&m doing protein c tests ? as i thought all were being done at cornell?
WOW, Hope some more folks answer this question. I do love that Low Protein Diet you posted. The one with the white fish.

drabinowitz43 08-20-2009 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicgenie (Post 2764739)
but I thought the objective of surgery was to eliminate the need for medical management and special diet. Joey had surgery and still needs all that? Who said he would die without surgery? What were his BAT results after he went on medical management but before surgery?
Joey eats over the counter Natural Balance Vegetarian, I wouldn't exactly call that anything out of the ordinary, although he doesn't eat meat, ie special diet. He had already developed bladder stones and was sleeping all the time, he may not have died right away, but he would've gone downhill over time. His BAT was in the high 70's, I don't recall whether he had fasted, the test was done as a screening prior to his scheduled neutering. I remember you know and you disgusted me then and shouldn't start with me now. According to you, I should've handed the dog back to the breeder who wouldn't have treated him.

Lolasmom1211 08-22-2009 04:33 AM
There is such a huge difference between these dogs that do have the surgery and those that don't...why would you even take the chance. I think the research that Dr. Tobias at UT has done shows you the difference. If you want exact numbers and research results, go to UT's website or Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support : Liver Shunt & MVD/HMD Support. I think they have most of the information there. My Lola was operated on in March by Dr. Tobias, the difference in her in just these five months is the proof I need. She is so much more alert and active, she has gained weight and will actually eat. I thought she had no symptoms of LS until the shunt was surgically repaired, then I realized all the the symptoms that I had missed. I would have been so afraid not to do what all we have done to save her...it definitely has all been worth it.

drabinowitz43 08-22-2009 05:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolasmom1211 (Post 2767284)
There is such a huge difference between these dogs that do have the surgery and those that don't...why would you even take the chance. I think the research that Dr. Tobias at UT has done shows you the difference. If you want exact numbers and research results, go to UT's website or Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support : Liver Shunt & MVD/HMD Support. I think they have most of the information there. My Lola was operated on in March by Dr. Tobias, the difference in her in just these five months is the proof I need. She is so much more alert and active, she has gained weight and will actually eat. I thought she had no symptoms of LS until the shunt was surgically repaired, then I realized all the the symptoms that I had missed. I would have been so afraid not to do what all we have done to save her...it definitely has all been worth it.
I am so happy to hear that Lola is doing well. I remember we went through that stressful time together and both of our pups had surgery last March. I had also missed many symptoms and we are lucky this was caught early before Lola and Joey developed secondary problems from the buildup of toxins in their little bodies.

Lolasmom1211 08-22-2009 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drabinowitz43 (Post 2767325)
I am so happy to hear that Lola is doing well. I remember we went through that stressful time together and both of our pups had surgery last March. I had also missed many symptoms and we are lucky this was caught early before Lola and Joey developed secondary problems from the buildup of toxins in their little bodies.
Thanks. We are retesting her BA's again in September. Her numbers were cut in half in May, but we are still not completely normal. Even if this is the best we get, I'll gratefully take it. She is so much better and acts like a puppy again. I had no idea what difference having the surgery would make! My daughter is a fourth year Medical student and tried to explain to me what the shunt was doing to her tiny, little body, and it's no wonder she feels so much better now. I'm so happy to hear that your baby's numbers have returned to normal. How lucky we have been! Give Joey a big kiss on his head from us!

cley 08-22-2009 06:27 AM
My Mia had shunt surgery at UT in Mach also and still takes lactulose and is on a special dies. I'm wondering how much lactulose are you giving your baby and his/her weight. Mia's BAT is still in the 90's. She is doing MUCH better since the surgery!!! I want to get her test down to closer to normal.

Lolasmom1211 08-22-2009 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cley (Post 2767378)
My Mia had shunt surgery at UT in Mach also and still takes lactulose and is on a special dies. I'm wondering how much lactulose are you giving your baby and his/her weight. Mia's BAT is still in the 90's. She is doing MUCH better since the surgery!!! I want to get her test down to closer to normal.
I use about 1.5 cc 3 times a day for Lola and she is really small. She weighs about 3.75 lbs, but that is the amount needed to keep her stools soft, but formed. I'm hoping her tests come back normal in September (fingers crossed!).

drabinowitz43 08-22-2009 06:47 AM
Joey weighs 3.5 pounds and he gets .5 cc 2x daily. If I give him more, he gets diarrhea. It gets a little tricky, but you get a routine going.

dwerten 08-22-2009 06:50 AM
did they liver biopsy all your babies as well for mvd when doing the surgery as i know if they have mvd as well i am sure that requires some support after shunt is fixed. My friend who is on here as well her little 3lb yorkie is doing great since surgery with dr tobias and only on food rc hepatic and it has been two years and her bats are normal

dwerten 08-22-2009 06:51 AM
so happy all your babies are doing so great - my dd had post of 73.1, 54 and 26 from low protein diet purina ha hydrolized soy diet low in protein and fat. I never pursued further testing as she did not have any symptoms and bats almost normal on low protein diet

Lolasmom1211 08-22-2009 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2767421)
did they liver biopsy all your babies as well for mvd when doing the surgery as i know if they have mvd as well i am sure that requires some support after shunt is fixed. My friend who is on here as well her little 3lb yorkie is doing great since surgery with dr tobias and only on food rc hepatic and it has been two years and her bats are normal
Yes, Dr. Tobias did a liver biopsy and everything came back normal. I retested Lola in May, about 12 weeks after surgery. Her numbers had been reduced by half but were still high. I was told to wait another 3 months and retest in September. If Lola's numbers are normal, she will not have to be on any special diet or meds. If her numbers are still high, I will just continue to feed her a low protein food and squirt lactulose on her food three times a day and forget about retesting her anymore. Buying a bag of vegeterian food is really no harder to buy than high protein food! And....I save on vaccinations, too!


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