First of all we weren't talking about breeders, we were discussing brokers and pet shops.And IMO the only thing hard working is the poor breeding dogs that never get a break, a treat or a kind word.Do not candy coat this issue by saying some pet store breeders are good. Would a good breeder allow their puppies to go to a cage in a pet store? To sit there for an indefinite amount of time? Well, that is not my idea of a good breeder.
Oh and another thing, a good breeder will be asking ME the questions to be sure I am suitable for one of their babies. Not me hunting them down thru a broker or pet store affiliation.

Kim I agree with some of what you are saying here. I too don't want anything that I have said to damage the reputation of good, honest hard working people. But the reality is that the reputation and documented cases of animal abuse & neglect that mill dogs are subjected to and the heartbreaking horror stories of ill or dying puppies, puppies that over priced, puppies that end up not being what the are represented as being is what has destroyed the reputation of the pet shop industry. Mills have contributed to the negative opinions that people have for pet shops selling puppies and kittens. Most pet shops obtain stock form the mills or brokers. They have destroyed their own integrity.

Exactly! I have never heard of or known of a good breeder out there that has the need to use a broker or sell their pups to a petshop. Maybe they are out there... but I have never seen it.

Since when did coat changes become a puppy mill discussion? C'mon guys, we all know this is a controversial topic and the thread about it has been closed before so maybe we should do what the Admin says and stick to thread topic. Please, please, please?

Anyway, Fred's coat is pretty nappy right now but I think it's just his puppy stage. I have tried all sorts of shampoos but have yet to try the Chris Christensen one, which I will soon! It tangles real easy even if I brush him two-three times a day. He'll run around for a bit, come back and look nappy again! But, I can see that his roots are growing out very straight, soft and shiny! I'm excited to see his new coat grow out!

Hey Natalie! Don't forget the donuts!!

Personally I dont care whether or not it is a controversial subject. I didn't start the discussion on puppymills and petstores but I don't feel like it is right to stick my head in the sand and pretend that this is good information.I will post on this subject if it comes up, I feel stronglyabout it and I am not being rude. As far as I am concerned this type of discussion controversial or not should never be closed, if you dont want to read it, dont.
The information should be public, nobody is pointing out one particular broker or pet store, but for the people looking to buy a puppy why not give them different viewpoints other than "some are good"? The truth is there is NO GRAY AREA here.

If you read the rules, the Admin asks us to keep things on topic with the thread title. Good threads like this one have been closed because people tend to bring in topics that should not have been entwined in the discussion to begin with. The thread started as "Coat changes in a puppy", not "Puppy Mills". If you want to discuss this topic, perhaps you should start another thread on puppy mills. I'm just trying to help Admin out because I know he can't do everything on his own and needs members to help out.

Natalie - you are very wise and seem quite sweet :thumbs up . I wondered if you tried a spray conditioner for Fred's unruly hair.

Also, I hope Debr won't feel like we are a crazy bunch, and be afraid to post an additional question. :confused:

If you read back you will see that it was not me that brought up and "entwined" the subject of pet stores and puppy mills. I was simply responding to another poster. If you like I will start a thread on puppymills and pet stores. I have no problem with that.
Thank you for pointing that out to me and being able to redirect us all to the topic at hand. Just curious tho, what do donuts have to do with puppy hair?

I use all Chris Christiansen... the shampoo, conditioner and Ice on Ice. I also like Vellus products.

I have PM'd Debr and she's fine. She is going to be a great new member. See the introduction thread she posted. She trains Germand Shepherds and also rescue dogs to make them more suitable for adoption! She sounds like she will fit right in and her heart is definitely in the right place!

I used to train shepherds too and showed in obedience when I was younger so we have sonething else in common besides yorkies.

How about starting a new thread if you feel so strongly about something
 

You need to make your OWN THREAD.
When someone joins Yorkietalk they should feel welcomed.
The whole point is she already has the dog so what is the point of going on about why it is bad to by from a petstore AFTER she already has the dog.
She is a new member wanting advice about her puppy's coat. To not welcome her and then for her to be blasted for something that will not be undone and to make accusations and assumptions is wrong in my book.

I noticed that people will jump all over people for after the fact things. Like ...My dog got pregnant now what do I do, My dog just had puppies, I don't know what to do... Yah that upsets me for poor planning, lack of responsiblity ...what ever. The point is we should help them because the deed is already done. Are we not here to help the dogs who are owned by forum members? Blasting people for what should of, could of been done is not getting that particular dog help. Like I said if you feel people should learn about certain issues then Start a new thread.

:lol tears :lol tears :lol tears

You got us on that one Dawn!

I wasn't even directing my original post at you. I was talking about the whole thread in general going in the wrong direction. Shrug. So I don't really know where the sarcasm takes play. :eyebrow2: Anyway,

Thanks, Laura! lol Unruly is the word for his darn hair! Uncooperative, too! I haven't. I read somewhere about spraying Thermasilk leave in conditioner on him but I also read about the different pH balances in human hair products versus puppy products so I tried it once but the Thermasilk didn't work so I stopped trying! What leave in conditioner would you recommend? The Chris Christensen one?

Good Point Cyn. I agree totally.

thank you to the reply here on Chris Christensen one, I also recieved a reply for another prooduct to try. I will get her those tomorrow. Those combined with a high quality diet, some supplements and in a few weeks she should be looking as good as my other dogs.

As for pet stores. I am aware alot do buy from puppy mills, and seems all chain pet stores selling cats/dogs buy from mills. The store I deal with was owned by the son. This entire family LOVES animals. His mom & dad bred parrots and a few different type of dogs here for years. The pet store at first was fish & reptiles. The parents & son decided to combine as the demand for parrots & puppies grew as our area grew and the word got out about their great babies they were making. The pet store now added a few birds and a few puppies. As time went on the mom added a grooming shop. I can guarantee 110pct they dont have nor ever had any mill puppies. Not all pet stores are bad. Some really do love the animals and enjoy to make people happy, they encourage people to bring the pups back there to be groomed or visit. They have boards of pics of their puppies growing up in new homes. I would never ever buy a dog again unless I knew the people it came from or the people came highly recommended by someone I trusted entirely. below you will find out why:

Breeders: I purchased a from a "reputable" breeder with "champion lines" rest of his litter was "show quality". I did some research and from what I could dig up it seemed like she was someone worthy to deal with- disneyland letter of recomendation for her pups (later found out is falsified) police dept letters stating how great her dogs are (later found to be a friend of hers). No1, at 9 weeks old the dog was showing signs of aggression. Puppy park visits daily, puppy school and hanging out in publix parking lot to let everyone touch him should have fixed him. By 10 months old he was so aggressive I thought he would kill someone who did not live in my home. Thats what got me into training & getting educated on canine behaviors. Everything failed with him that was known. He also had a 3rd ear growing out of his left ear (felt sorry for him since he had this and bought him)and by 12 mos old had severe hip dysplasia. I call breeder: she refuses to see him or discuss it, I called her alot with no results. I then called every club in my state, every breeder of his breed to see if i can get answers. In that search I found out-his mother was in puerto rico during the time she was supposedly pregnant and he was supposed to have been born. I also found out the breeder goes off and buys $200 puppies, puts her champ line AKC on them and sells them for $3500-$10000 +. I paid $3500 for mine. My vet advised I put him down, he was to much of a risk in a family neighborhood-due to his extreme genetic aggression-yes the vet said his aggression came directly from his mom and he was a genetically flawed disaster. I did what I found to be humane-I gave him to a phobation officer with acreage and no neighbors. The dog had to run on a farm, where he could never kill anyone. So I would never buy from some strange breeder-even with all these awards, letters of recomendation-things can and will be falsified to make the breeder look better. My dog isnt an isolated case with this breeder. I have dug up alot about her, finding out if a breeder is not liscensed here you cannot sue on a profesisonal level you can sue on a personal level. Most people dont go looking thru court records to find personal appearences-leaving the breeder pretty safe to keep doing business under some kennel name they use-but it isnt liscensed. She did have a liscense number on her paper work & business card but I found out it was expired over 8 years ago. Lemon law is a joke as most courts throw the cases out. You have more legal backup dealing with a business such as a pet store.

I know not all breeders are bad. For the dog club we had a Breeder Referral database. If people wanted a specific breed we checked local rescues, if nothing and the person was really set on a specific breed we had a list of who you never go to and who is highly recommended. We had approx 10 reputable breeders and over 50 that were bad. The breeder didnt get a negative or positive rating just on what 1 person said. When we were given a breeder name to put on list we researched that name, we spoke to the veterinarian on the puppy papers, we spoke with other breeders of that breed and local dog clubs. These 50 bad breeders got the bad rating for various things: letting dogs play with bleach bottles for toys-can you imagine a litter of puppies coming out of that pregnant mom? selling deformed dogs-more then 1 case, selling sick dogs-knowing they were sick but never tellingowner, having unhealthy conditions in the areas dogs were kept-but having a nice clean area for you to meet puppies & mom dog, one breeder with many awards, highly recommended turned out she sold a "show quality" male to someone for the purpose of showing & breeding-to find out he has some anal deformity when breeder was contacted she said oh we can have my pet perform a surgery in my garage and we will pass him off as normal, as long as you make money for attempted breeding noone will know that he cant really reproduce. Breeder was paid high dollars to mate her male with someones female, the male wouldn't mate so she threw in another dog-but told the female owner her male had done it and papered the puppies to him. I can go on and on-but it would make you sick. There are more bad breeders then there are good ones. I would never ever trust some breeder.

Now that I cleared that up (above). I thought this seemed like a nice friendly board to share and get advice on a breed i really know very little about. Somewhere to share her photos ,growing up cuties, with people whom also share their hearts with the same breed of dog. I dont see the welcome wagon I do see a bunch of torches and some people on some witch hunt.

Before assuming all people are stupid out buying mill puppies-maybe get to know them a little. As is my case I do know the owners of my dogs parents even if from an "evil" pet store, I do know the entire history of their store since the day it was opened, I do know the owners well enough that I do trust them 110pct.

Im not about to be taken by some breeder again-ever. It was an expensive experience in my wallet and my heart. Crying daily for 4 months-knowing I couldn't keep my dog in my residential neighborhood and around my kids, knowing I had to send him somewhere safe for him. I cried for hours everyday for 4months-I paid for paying a "show line"breeder with all the nice little plaques, awards, letters of recommendation. I paid with a piece of my heart that will never be returned-you see I loved that dog deeply, the school I took him to to keep trying to socialize him said they had never seen a dog so proud to be with his owner nor loved his owner as deeply as my dog loved me. We were as bonded as it gets. I will never recover from that experience, I will never have that void filled as it has been several years and it hurts just as much as back then, I have been scarred-so yes I am anti breeder unless I know them well or someone I trust knows them well. I will never again be the fool.

Way back, I got a "baby powder" conditioner at Petsmart or Petco - for dogs. I loved them to smell like babies, and it did seem to make Zowie's hair more managable. The thing I love about tiny dogs is you can afford to feed them the best food because they eat so little (in comparison to a German Shepherd I had - I could barely move those bags to the bottom of the cart and then to heave them to my trunk - I fed him purina one, but it was a budget item. :p )

Where are you Debr? We have a pet shop sorta like that here in Wylie - They sold exotic birds and had a list of the words each could say. It was a fun place to visit.

I also had a heartbreaking experience with a shi-zhu pup I received free from a neighbor of my mother. I believe Sparky was a badly bred, probably puppy mill pup. He was my 4 year old son's dog. We had to put him down at age 2.5 due to his vicious tendencies. I was so heartbroken. We spent several months, purchased a german shepherd for my son, gave Sparky to his dad (in our house), trying to ease the separation for my son. Sparky was blind and deaf, had allergies, but became more and more jumpy and would turn and attack unexpectedly. With much research, I wanted to make sure when he was put down, it would not be because he had maimed a child.

The reason I say this, is cute dogs (Yorkies now in the top 5 wanted breeds two years running-according to my husband) are always going to be top dogs in mills due to large demand. Many people cannot afford this type of dog, but they want them.

When we got ours, Sparky was heavy in my thoughts - I just wanted the dog I wanted and to be careful of where they came from and how they had been raised prior to my arrival.

I talk to much, but as out of control as this became, everyone here does have a kind heart and loves their dogs and others.

DebR, I am so sorry the welcome wagon was hijacked!

My Max's coat was a lot like you describe when we first brought him home...seemed like he needed much more frequent bathing than he does now at 7 months. He tended to get that greasy look about every 5 days or so, which meant lots of baths.

His puppy coat was more wirey than he is now, too...he's very smooth & soft now, and hardly knots at all.

As far as coloring, he also has the silver showing through...I groomed him this past weekend & about 3/4 of each strand of hair was black, and the 1/4 closest to his skin was silver.

My friend has a Yorkie that's blonde & has the waviest, knot-prone hair...so very different from Max. But he's beautiful!

Best of luck to you with your new pup!

Hi - I posted against pet stores - but DID say that I commend you on how you went about it and congratulated you on your new puppy ...and I sincerely meant that -

It's not a witch hunt to want animal abuse to stop. It can't be said enough that Mills sell to Pet Stores... and In no way are people stupid - many are just unaware of how those puppies get to those stores....

and yes - this IS a subject that should have been in it's own thread - I agree - and I apologise if this affected you in any way - Please try to ignore the pm's I'm sure your getting - this is a nice site and we ALL are here out of love for our pets.

congratulations again on your new puppy - having a yorkie puppy is the best !

Sorry i forgot the welcome wagon part. I was not condemning you for buying your pup from a pet store at all. Whats done is done and I hope you have a happy healthy yorkie!! But as far as the "witchhunt " thing, I am not sure what you are talking about. There was no witchhunt, just a few people expressing an opinion on something that is important to them.

You must not live in a small town. People do it all the time, and where someone said a person would sell the dog with a huge profit margin, that is just not always the case. My five babies are not necessarily for sale. One of my girlfriends is dying to have one. She gave me twenty dollars today. It is not that she cannot afford to pay for a dog, they have plenty of money, it is a friend thing. At the pet store in our town, they would sell puppies on consigment and for 10-20%. A person could take them there temporarily, or daily . We (no me personally) sell puppies at the soccer field, at the grocery store, etc. Sometimes you would rather sell at a discount and know the owners of your babies. My girlfriend now has to buy an airline ticket to come get her puppy in two months. We are going to go shopping for a carrier, food, shampoo, etc. when she comes in in July. She will pay for all the puppy care between now and then. She knows I am giving her an expensive baby and that she must give it the most love in the world. All my children care about is that they know who will have them. I have two boys graduating from highschool in a year. Just putting a little country perspective in here. :)

I'm not trying to be confrontational either, but I can speak from my personal experience... I got Bunny from a breeder that lives in a very, very small town in Texas and I know for a fact that she would NEVER in a million years have her pups placed in a home that she had not personally okay'd. She drilled me with questions forever about training methods I used, my other Yorkie, myself, my lifestyle, how many hours a week I am away from the house for work and socially..... I had to send her pics of my house... You name it. And if I didnt provide her with the info, there is no way I would've been able to adopt one of her puppies.

You got Baby Bunny from a good breeder. There's another one around here that wants to do a home visit to make sure someone is suitable for one of her babies. I thought it was a bit much at first but the more I thought about it I thought it was a good thing.

I think it's time to go to sleep :)

i'm staying clear of this one :eek: i just wish we could all just get along.

Debr, I wanted to welcome you to YT. Regarding to coats, MY gucci's hair seems to be soft after a bath but a cpl of days later doesnt looks as nice. I started her on Missing Link Suplement and that seem to help her. I also switch her food to a high quality one. Good luck with your little one. Looking forward to see pics of your baby. :)

I'm confused? :confused: who's being confrontational? :confused:

Confrontational ? I don't see it in that post at all....though that particular response was ...we all have our own style of writing - nothing bad was said in that post at all.

She only shared her personal experience ....extreme for a breeder maybe...and it's too bad there aren't more breeders out there like that. I know there never will be - but it's nice to hear about