Question about yorkie development
 

Guys,

Is there a formula or anything like that, which can help me determine if my yorkie is gaining enough or too little.

I know that when human kids are born, their pediatrician can say each time what percentile they are based on their weight gain.

There must be an educated way to evaluate if the diet and living arrangements are good for one's particular yorkie based on its weight gain each week or each month.

Does anybody know how much weight gain is considered normal, too little or too much. Each of us, I am sure, wants to address a potential developmental problem soon enough before it turns to be obesity or hypoglycemia.

Here is a growth chart http://www.yorkiepassion.com/growthchart.htm

That is a tough question since the weight and size of Yorkies can vary so much. We have less than 2 pound adults and up to 18 pounds! Instead look at the body build. Feel for the ribs -- you should be able to feel them but not feel like they are protruding. Do they have plenty of energy, play hard and look happy? Then they are probably getting enough to eat.

Some days it does not seem like mine make a dent in their kibble. But they are so rowdy, run our fenced acre like aspiring greyhounds and give kisses like there is no tomorrow. So, I think they are probably getting enough. Just some times they are not as hungry as others.

I'd have to say to take it on an individual basis, just like children.
If you're seeing symptoms of anemia or hypoglycemia, then adjust accordingly, but MOST importantly, I'd say that if they're lean then you're fine.

Go by the frame of your individual dog.

I printed this chart out and have added Joey?s weight each week; he is always in the same column so that makes me feel he gaining the appropriate amount of weight.
Nancy

Here is the reason of my asking to put the question into content.

At Manya's first visit to the vet, which was when she was 14 weeks, she weighted according to his assistant 1.38 lbs. It was kind of bizarre because her breeder said that she was almost 2 lbs when we got her.

Anyway, I trusted the assistant's scale. I did not see it myself because Manya was taken to a different room. Anyway, the vet said that she is really healthy and happy, and everything was dandy.

I took her home. She was the happiest and healthiest eater in spite of her weight. She was on the strict schedule and I would normally give her 25 pieces of dry wood, which amounts to 1/8 of a cup three times a day. She would devour her food. My boyfriend unilaterally decided that Manya wants more. So, he started giving her probably double, maybe a little less (like 40-45). She would eat most of it, sometimes leaving some.

When I took her to the vet (her vet was out on vacation and she was seen by a very young vet instead, which I had no clue would happen) two weeks after our first appointment, at 16 weeks, for Rabies shot, she weighted, according to a different assistant, 2lbs. I almost floored. It would make her gain 0.62 lbs in just two weeks (almost third of her original weight). I said, "No way." She really did not feel that on touch and she did not look like she gained that much, but what do I know?

I asked the vet if it's normal and she was like, "Absolutely!" I always considered myself to be a reasonable person. Gaining so much is not reasonable unless there was a mistake made in her original weight, which is what my boyfriend thinks happened. He thinks that Manya was a little less than two and gained a couple of ounces. This makes sense. I just could not imagine that vet's assistant can be so wrong looking at the scale.

Anyway, I was all paranoid about it and said that we need to feed her strictly what I had her eat before, which is 25 pieces. I also decide to buy a scale myself. At least this way, I would know for sure. So, hypoglycemia is not our issue. It is the opposite that might be true. However, it is unlikely. She does not look heavy and she does not feel heavy. It's absolutely bizarre. Again, my thoughts were confirmed when I looked at the chart you, guys, sent me. Every week, the puppy there was to gain 1-2 ounces. That's what I thought was normal.

Thoughts?

Puppies sometimes lose weight the first couple of weeks adjusting to their new environment. So your puppy is just making up for this. My breeder recommended food be available at all time until the age of 9 months and then you can feed twice a day. I think by limiting food you can make your puppy more food deprived and food addicted. A healthy puppy shouldn?t overeat if given a healthy puppy food. Just limit snacks.
Nancy

That's the thing. She has never lost a pound. We took her to the vet the second day of her arrival. What I think is happening is that her breeder was right. She was slightly less than two pounds and just gained a couple of ounces after two weeks. Her first weight was not the right figure. The assistant made a mistake.

On the issue of having food constantly available, I absolutely disagree with you. All the literature on the subject and most if not all of the vets suggest a schedule for both developmental as well as training purposes. Every vet I know says that a puppy needs to be reasonably hungry for every meal.

Animals don't have a sense of fullness when they see food. They eat as much as they can handle before they are tired to eat or before they are interrupted to do something else. It's similar to humans, in order to stay healthy, we need to have portion control, schedule as well as healthy food and plenty of exercise.

It is similar with new born human babies. They need a schedule.

You should do whatever you think is the best, of course but modern day veterinary science is not in agreement on that. Depending on the size, age as well as level of activity, each puppy should eat 3 or 4 times a day. The size of their portion varies also depending on those criteria. At the same time, there must be a form of control in the portion and schedule at all times.

Your Vet can answer your questions. My Vet is wonderful.

Personally, I would prefer the word of a professional breeder whom I admire then just any vet. Remember, veterinarians are trained in many animals and don't necessarily specialize in Yorkies. Most vets learn from the breeders!

The literature, to which you refer, is this to dogs in general or Yorkies? Since they do suffer from hypoglycemia, their needs are different.

Animals as well as humans do know a sense of fullness; the key ingredient to this is HEATHY food. Once you have created an eating disorder or introduce an unhealthy food (high fats and/or high sweets) the animal and or human will overlook this sense of fullness and overeat.

I also fed my human babies on demand. I think this schedule thing is terribly old fashioned and I'm surprised anybody is still doing this and/or recommending it.

Nancy

My Vet specializes in small animals.

You count out her food??? Are you worried that she is going to be big if you free feed her? I wouldn't really worry that she is eating 20 more kibbles..You probably aren't feeding her enough and that is why she gobbled them up. She will only eat if she is hungry..puppies need to eat

I agree with BLowry. My boy has free access to his dry kibble and will eat until satisfied many times a day. Some days he will eat more and others less. I would not count his kibble........how can I be certain he is satisfied?

Where did you get the information that "most vets learn from breeders"? I was under the impression that vets learn from scientific inquiry, research and lab work.

You would rather listen to a breeder than trained medical professional!? Do you even believe in science?

It's also kind of ironic that you mentioned having schedule as an old fashioned approach in comparison to free feeding. Old fashioned according to whom?

Let's just start with a few quotes from 2006 publications:

1. According to the PetDiets.com, a site maintained by veterianry nutritionists, "Many people rely on their ?common sense? when selecting a food or diet for their pet. In fact, many things we ?know? about our pet?s nutrition and their diets are not exactly correct, and making nutritional decisions based on misinformation and current gossip can be harmful for our pets."

Moreover, based on the American Academy of Veterinary Nurticion, "free-feeding is the worst way to go. The best comparison we can make is that free-feeding is like having a full buffet in your house, stocked with food 24 hours-a-day. When you think of it this way, it?s not hard to understand why pets that are free-fed tend to be sluggish, lethargic, and passionless about their food. After all, how excited would you be about that lasagna if you had a big bowl of it sitting in the corner all day long? In a dog or cat?s life food is the number-one motivation. Sure, they love rides in the car, going for walks, or getting a visit from the neighbor?s pet. But nothing beats food. A critter with no passion for food is an unhappy critter. A pet should have an unbridled passion for food. They need to look forward to their next meal with anticipation and excitement. This creates the foundation for a well-tempered, happy pet.
In addition to the negative effect on disposition, free feeding is not ideal for the digestive system. Dogs and cats in the wild have long breaks between meals -- far longer than humans who operate ideally on 3 meals per day. These breaks give their digestive system a chance to rest and prepare for the next meal. So, if this is all true, why do some pet foods suggest free-feeding? For the same reason that your shampoo bottle tells you to lather, rinse, and repeat . . . to sell more shampoo. The sad fact is that many pet food manufacturers are far more concerned with the almighty dollar than the health of your pets."


2. According to the American Association for The Prevention of Cruelty To Animals, "Free-choice feeding is also known as 'ad lib' feeding or 'free feeding.' Food is available at all times, as much as the pet wants, whenever the pet wants. Most lactating pets are fed by the free-choice method, and free choice is an accepted method for the feeding of cats. This method is most appropriate when feeding dry food, which will not spoil if left out.
Some dogs and cats, however, will overeat when fed free-choice, which can result in:

a) Obesity. If your pet eats free-choice and has put on too much weight, you will need to switch to portion-control feeding, AND

b) Developmental Bone Diseases. If you have a large- or giant-sized puppy of a breed susceptible to OCD, hypertrophic osteodystrophy, or hip dysplasia, do not free-feed your pet. He may overeat, which can lead to rapid growth and a greater incidence of bone diseases. Large- or giant-breed pups should be fed with the portion-controlled or timed-feeding methods.


3. According to the AKC (I thought you mentioned breeders as you goldent standard), "Puppies need more calories and essential nutrients than do adult dogs. Choose a food specially formulated for puppies. Puppies under six months should get three or four meals a day. They are growing rapidly, but their stomachs have limited capacity. After six months they can handle two to three meals a day.

Adult dogs should be fed according to their size and energy needs. Most adults should get two meals a day.

4. According to the "Canine Behavior Series" that is written by professional dog trainers, "It's best to feed at least two meals a day (more if your veterinarian recommends it for the particular dog), and to have the dog promptly eat the food as soon as you give it. With this as your goal, you're likely to soon have a dog who is easy to feed, comfortable, has normal stools on a regular schedule, and is responsive to food when you use treats for training. You'll also quickly note any loss of appetite, an important means of knowing when your dog needs medical help and getting treatment in time to save your dog's life or avoid a minor illness from turning into a major one.

Some dogs go their whole lives eating without a schedule, having food left out all the time. Several things can cause this to suddenly become a problem, though.

If you add another dog to the household, or another dog comes to visit, you'll need to separate the free feeder from the other dog whenever they eat. The free feeder will suddenly not have constant access to the dish.
Dogs can develop medical problems from going too long without food. The free-feeder dog is of course not aware of needing to eat every so many hours. As a result, these dogs become candidates for things like seizures from hypoglycemia.Free-feeding dogs often become overweight or underweight after awhile, resulting in the need to adjust food amounts. You'll need to convert the dog to scheduled feeding then.
Some boarding situations will require that your dog be able to eat on schedule rather than free-feeding. This would be especially true if a friend or relative with a dog needed to keep your dog for you.
Free-feeding a puppy makes housetraining more difficult. When a dog eats on a regular schedule, bowel movements occur on a regular schedule. That helps you figure out when your dog will need a potty outing. "

What sources are you relying on?

You say:
"Where did you get the information that "most vets learn from breeders"? I was under the impression that vets learn from scientific inquiry, research and lab work."

Scientific inquiry includes talking to professional breeders.

When I use the word breeder, I'm referring to a professional breeder whose opinion I respect. Someone who has been doing this for well over 30 years, and has done research, testing, and scientific inquiry herself. She is an expert and vets do come to her for advice. My own vet, who while not familiar with this particular breeder, told me he asks the breeders for advice all the time; this made me respect him more. You ask me if I believe in science, of coarse I do, but there is good science and bad science, and an example of bad science is when someone quotes from various publication to try to prove their point. You seem to be mixing apples with oranges here, I was talking about puppies under the age of 9 months, so all the literature you have quoted on adult dogs can automatically be ruled out.

The only thing that referred to puppies was this quote:

"3. According to the AKC (I thought you mentioned breeders as you goldent standard), "Puppies need more calories and essential nutrients than do adult dogs. Choose a food specially formulated for puppies. Puppies under six months should get three or four meals a day. They are growing rapidly, but their stomachs have limited capacity. After six months they can handle two to three meals a day."

This to me says nothing AGAINST free feeding, but mainly points out that "They are growing rapidly, but their stomachs have limited capacity". Are you supposed to empty the bowl out after every feeding? If not, this is essentially free feeding. The important point here is even this refers to puppies in general not Yorkshire terriers which have very specific needs and problems, one of which is hypoglycemia.


You say:

"Each of us, I am sure, wants to address a potential developmental problem soon enough before it turns to be obesity or hypoglycemia."

It's not clear to me that you understand what hypoglycemia is, it's a condition resulting from low blood sugar. Yorkies are prone to this especially as puppies, it not something that they grow into like obesity.

You also state:
"Dogs can develop medical problems from going too long without food. The free-feeder dog is of course not aware of needing to eat every so many hours. As a result, these dogs become candidates for things like seizures from hypoglycemia."

First statement true, but the second statement " The free-feeder dog is of course not aware of needing to eat every so many hours. As a result, these dogs become candidates for things like seizures from hypoglycemia." What??? The dog forgets to eat??? What was your source for this? While it is true a dog suffering from hypoglycemia may not eat a little Karo syrup or Nutrical applied to roof of mouth will induce him to eat. This is much more likely to happen with a food-deprived animal then one that is free fed. This is another example of bad science, mixing a true statement with an opinion and passing it off as the latest expert advice.

While it true food deprived animals learn at a much faster rate than satiated animals, since we are talking about puppies why is this so important? In the early months of their lives, they are growing so fast, doubling and tripling their weight. Everything, from the skeletal system, to muscle development including the heart muscle, as well as brain development is increasing in size. Also, this is the time their adult teeth are forming and Yorkies are prone to tooth problems, which can have devastating effects on their overall health in latter years. This is just not the time to limit their food. So what if he takes longer to become housebroken because he not eating to some prearranged schedule, I would rather have a healthy puppy that turns into a healthy dog with strong bones and teeth, a healthy heart, and good brain. This first year is the most important year of their life.

Clearly, you feel very strongly about this and I was initially just offering some advise that I had been given. You can take it or leave it, but please don't try to convince everyone that all experts believe free feeding puppies is bad. I am perplexed to as why you posted your initial question, and my main goal was just to reassure you everything sounded normal.

Nancy

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Stop the Fighting Please
 

Obviously ChicagoSoul and Nancy have very different ideas about how to raise yorkies just like people in the world have very different ideas about how to raise human babies. Do what you feel is responsible and ethical for your babies and offer OPINIONS when asked. But please do not try to say one person is more right than another. After seeing these back and forth arguments I would like to point out a few things:

1. Vets are trained professionals using scientific methods but they do have to learn many different animal systems so it is only natural that there may be some things they do not know where a reputable long time breeder that specializes in yorkies may know.

2. However, regarding whether to free feed or to have a schedule I believe both have advantages and dissadvantages. Not one method is completely terrible or exceptionally good. Catering to the need of your dog is the most important thing. Just like some people like eating 3 big meals a day while other people have to eat 6 meals a day because their stomach can only hold so much food at once. Also keep in mind that puppies are developing and need extra nutrition for growth on top of calories to maintain everyday activity. I personally believe free feeding is a little bit more suitable but I am not against scheduled feeding in general. The reason being: activity levels for each dog is different and even the same dog will have more active and less active days. So how much to feed really is just a guideline. Counting out exactly how many pieces of kibble to eat is a bit excessive in my opinion. As long as you are feeding a well balanced healthy diet, obesity should not develop in a genetically and medically healthy puppy.

3. I work in the medical research field. I know about scientific literature because I read them everyday and I write some myself. Please know that science is ongoing, everyday there are new ideas being presented that overrule previous theories and many controversies exist because it is very hard to prove definitively one way or another. We would all like to believe that science is clear cut, either right or wrong. But the truth is it is not like that. So for the general public, citing specific articles or sources is really not necessary nor is it beneficial. Most of what either of you have cited are not original articles anyway. They are taken from people that read them and interpret them and rewrite them in their own words what THEIR understanding of the article was. So my point is: Somethings even the experts don't have definitive answers to, don't just believe every word you read or have been told and treat it like the bible. Being informed is great, but also practice common sense.

Sorry I am kinda venting because the hostility on this post sorta made me mad. But I just wanted to remind everyone how important it is to keep an open mind about new ideas. It can be as small as how to take care of your dog but it is just the same about more important stuff. We live in such a conflict driven world because too many people are too stubborn to accept anything other than what they believe in, what they were taught. SO PLEASE KEEP ＴＨＡＴ　ＩＮ MIND and let us all do our part in making this world a little bit more peaceful. Merry Christmas to everyone.

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I just went back and reread their posts and dont see where either Nancy or Chicago Soul were being hostile:confused: :confused: They were just debating opinions and people do that all the time on here

I apologize to Nancy and everybody who was particularly offended by my replies. I do not mean to teach anybody anything especially in the field where I am a student myself. At the same time, it is often the case that people on this forum or on the other forums turn a question into a major debate, and a major debate into personal assaults.

My question was really simple. It had to do with what is considered to be a normal weight gain for a given yorkie puppy as she grows from the week fourteen on to a week fifteen, and then sixteen. The reason I asked the question was because I wanted to make sure that my vet was wrong the first time he weighted my puppy because the weight difference cited between the first and the second appointment was, to say the least, unrealistic. To put the question into content, I gave underlying facts.

That was it. I was not asked of Nancy's or other people's evaluation of my particular parenting style as well as I haven't asked about whether or not I should free feed my puppy.

I am very happy with the way my puppy progresses in her development. Unlike some other people whose posts I read on the forum, my Manya has never barked, has never exhibited signs of aggression toward people, has never begged for food from me or my guests, has never been possessive of her food when I wanted to share her treats with other dogs, has never been picky about her food, has never been antisocial, has never been lonely or upset when left alone without my supervision, has never chewed on anything but her toys, and so forth which causes me to believe that I am not such a bad mommy afterwards.

I took my puppy to classes last Thursday, and she behaved much more grown up than all of the other puppies combined. She was also very perceptive to everything that the teacher showed us, which also suggests to me that I must be doing something right to raise my puppy the way she is.

As a general rule, I don't appreciate unsubstantiated judgement calls about me and the wellbeing of my puppy in my household from a person who is neither a breeder nor is a trained veterinarian.

I normally try to ignore comments such as "you clearly don't know what hypoglycemia is" or "your puppy will be aggressive and possessive of her food because you food deprive her" because it is nobody's business that I do know what hypoglycemia is in particular as well as I know what science is in general because I have a degree in biology and chemistry. It is nobody's business that I spent a good chunk of my life studying what science is and performing scientific experiments, including those in anatomy and physiology, where I had to dissect a dog and a cat, and study their organs. It should also be nobody's concern that I've studied and read many primary and secondary sources to know the difference between the two when I spent years of my life in Berkeley law school studying law and then practicing it.

I don't need to be calmed down and I do not need to be explained by people who vets are and what is the difference between their training and that of a breeder. I do not appreciate these paternalistic remarks.

Give me a break. I don't know about other people's lives, but my life is pretty normal and steady. We don't live in a conflict driven world unless we drive our own conflict. Let's not project our own issues and problems onto everybody else. Let me assure you that, from every point of view, I would love to be in my dog's position and have in my disposal everything that she has or will have in the future.

It's getting a little tiring to argue back and forth. So, let's just say that this is going to be my last and final comment on this particular issue. There is a difference, my dear Jessy RN2B, between asking a question and soliciting an evaluation. I would also like to suggest to you, just as kindly as you did, to mind your own business with respect to where and whether I am to post my subsequent posts. I would surely have your candidacy in mind if I have any questions in this regard in the future.

I take that back. Now somebodys getting hostile

As a breeder for more years than so many of you have lived I want to say that this is pure BULL ____!!!

counting the puppies pieces of food as opposed to free feeding is probably going to lead to more problems than you can count. Training doesn't hinge on feeding amount or schedule.

A puppy or dog is not like a person and absolutely will not overeat if given good nutrition - it will gain weight and get fat only if fed the same way we humans eat -that is to say that they are given food that does not meet their needs nutritionally.

Puppies should either (preferably ) be free fed or at least all they desire at feeding times throughout the day and fresh water available 24/7.

Just my thoughts but you certainly wouldn't put 6 cheerios on a babys plate and expect it to be fed with that and you can't see what your puppy needs either.

[QUOTE=ChicagoSoul]Here is the reason of my asking to put the question into content.

At Manya's first visit to the vet, which was when she was 14 weeks, she weighted according to his assistant 1.38 lbs. It was kind of bizarre because her breeder said that she was almost 2 lbs when we got her.

She was on the strict schedule and I would normally give her 25 pieces of dry wood, which amounts to 1/8 of a cup three times a day. She would devour her food. My boyfriend unilaterally decided that Manya wants more. So, he started giving her probably double, maybe a little less (like 40-45). She would eat most of it, sometimes leaving some.

When I took her to the vet (her vet was out on vacation and she was seen by a very young vet instead, which I had no clue would happen) two weeks after our first appointment, at 16 weeks, for Rabies shot, she weighted, according to a different assistant, 2lbs. I almost floored. It would make her gain 0.62 lbs in just two weeks (almost third of her original weight). I said, "No way."


I am just wondering if by "dry wood" you mean dry dog food? I have never heard it refered to as that.
You did come to this forum asking for opinions and you will get opinions from YT Members.
I have a 5lbs, 20 mo old female who is healthy and active. I keep dry food down for her at all times, somedays she eats it all, other days she picks at it. My dogs kibble is so small 25 pieces would not be very much!
Just like there are days I am hungry and others days I am not. I am 5'8", 125lbs, so I am not overweight either. I fed both my children on demand when they were infants. They too are healthy and not overweight.
You seem to be very concerned about your dog gaining weight, I would think at 16 weeks you would want her to gain weight. Maybe I just read it wrong?
Your dog will continue to gain weight/grow until well after 1 year of age. Yorkies are generally energetic and burn off their calorie intake.
I just would not want somebody to tell me that I couldn't eat, I have to wait until a certain time if I am hungry now. I tend to get a bit grumpy!:)

You guys need to settle down and enjoy.

[QUOTE=I Love Bailey]Settle down and ENJOY, You guys must be bored.