I started a post about a pet shop and the conditions of the dogs i called the animal servises and really they did nothing as long as they have food and water it is leagal he is the thread!
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47084
i think if we can get the pet store shut down and go to our legislature and plead our cases someday we might change something

Another thing that would help is if people just stop shopping at these pet stores, even for pet supplies. That means getting the word out all over so that more people are aware.

Educate, educate, educate.

I shudder when someone mentions "rescuing" an animal from a petstore. You may feel like you saved THAT animal from its current misery, but all you did was put money in the breeders' hands, and the next week, one or two more dogs take it's place.

You'd be doing SO much more good if, when you were apalled at something you saw in a petstore, you went home, and talked to your friends, and made phone calls, and wrote letters, and did something that would NOT support ($$$) the cycle, and enable it to continue.

What about the animals in the petstore? Don't they deserve a loving home too? This is the question that is always asked. Well, then, let the next customer who walks in be the one to support the mills, NOT YOU. And continue to try to (diplomatically) educate everyone you have the opportunity to discuss the issue with.

It's not like EVERYONE is going to stop buying animals in petstores all at once, leaving an entire generation of cats and dogs languishing in their cages into their old age. Rather, the tide will be turned in degrees, as more and more people are educated, and look for reputable breeders...and the supply/demand cycle for the mills dies a slow death.

That is the ONLY answer.

By the way, I in no way stand in judgment of anyone who bought their pet at a petstore before they "knew better"...I've done the same in the past.

This is a very good idea. Perhaps if they had to actually take care of the puppies, they wouldn't want to deal with selling them.

This was the question, and this thread has gotten off the track of the question I asked. :confused: If you want to discuss how to stop puppies from ever being sold in pet stores, wonderful, but please start a separate thread.

This thread was meant to discuss what should happen to the "existing" puppies in the pet stores.

I do thank those of you that have tried to answer the question.

I think, if we have the funds, the patience and the heart, we should 'rescue' the puppies from the stores by buying them. It makes no sense to me NOT to buy them because they are innocent and need a good home. Also there will always be some people that buy them.

The problem has to be solved from the source! We need to put pressure on the law makers, the law inforcement AND THE KENNEL CLUBS!

In Germany there is a breed called Leonberger. They are gentle giants and their breeding is very restricted. Maximum 3 litters per bitch, they are not allowed to be sold in pet stores, have to be given back to the breeder in case of rehoming and they don't give registrations to any puppy born outside this regulations.

How are the kennel clubs in USA handling the problem of puppy mills? If they would refuse to issue registrations and pedigrees to those breeders, they could not make that kind of money and it would not be commercially interesting to do that. :aimeeyork

Excellent answer! :thumbup: I think, if we also combine "rescuing" the puppies, with my friends suggestion of "low-balling" them on the price, (for example, insisting you will only pay half of their asking price),citing the more reasonable prices that reputable breeders charge, the pet stores would learn it's just not profitable.

My friends actually did negotiate a price on a puppy last week. Puppy was priced at $1,350. They negotiated down and bought the puppy for $500.00.
They were walking out the door, without the puppy, and the manager ran after them, and agreed to their offer. So, it can be done.

(It's pretty disheartening to think how little the store actually paid the so-called breeder for the puppy, since I am sure they still made a profit. :mad: )

We need to make sure that the pet store are up to standard so that the puppies that are there will be comfortable. we also need to educate the store owner about where they get there dogs some Really think they are getting good dogs because there Broker promises them this. If they only knew. Also i do have to say that the lil town store by me Does have good pets and pups there. they Proudly state they do not buy from mills or brokers.and they do mostly adopt out from the shelter. A frind of mine that worked ther for a while told me they Have a few beeders in the area ( small time ) that will advertise the pup through them. but they do not sell pups for profit I liked this and i think that if we educate more stores will stop selling for profit also.

I could almost guarantee that the kennel clubs would not do anything, only because they would lose money too and we all know what the bottom line is. The only way I can think of something actually getting done is by contacting city and county officials to have local/county laws changed and to have the stores have to follow so many rules and regulations that it just wouldn't be worth the trouble. One more way might be if the ASPCA in each state had a task force that did nothing else but check on these puppy mills consistently. Just can't see the last one being done, but I doubt the kennel clubs will do anything either.

but remeber the post from yesterday? JUST A DOG? there are alot of people out there that feel this way we need to change there minds and get the president to back the cause . if all the memeber of yt and there friends and family would take action and not just talk we could change i really think we could.

We ARE answering your question. And the answer is, there is nothing that concerned parties can do SPECIFICALLY for that SPECIFIC dog sitting there in the pet shop that WILL NOT SUPPORT THE CYCLE. ANY amount of money going into the breeders/mills pockets will only ENCOURAGE THEM TO BREED MORE.

BUYING AN ANIMAL IN A PETSTORE IS NOT RESCUING THEM, IT'S JUST PUTTING MORE AND MORE ANIMALS IN THAT SAME SITUATION. The good news is, if you're so worried about what will happen to those animals.....you don't have to be. The question you're asking is unnecessary....there will ALWAYS be ignorant (willfully, or innocently) people who will make impulsive petshop buys. There is NO NEED to "worry" about what will happen to those animals. If you don't buy them, someone else will. So I don't really understand the concern or the question????

It's a very hard question to answer, and even with all the answers that there are, they are easier said than done. This thread has not gone off topic, so I don't see why your trippin about it going off topic? If it was off topic we would start discussing other problems, but were not. You have to keep in mind that the problem of your question begins w/ the dogs coming to the petshops. If they didn't come to the petshops in the first place, we wouldn't be asking "what can be done w/ the ones that are there" because there would be none. With that in mind, my first reply is definitly not off topic like you said it was. Just remember, these puppies that are coming to the petshops are soon going to be the "existing" ones in pet stores.

No matter how much everyone on here preaches to other about petstores and spreads their knowledge, I really think it has to stop at puppy mills. Maybe that's where the rescuers should go in...if theres no dogs in the mills, no puppies can be made. If pet stores get shut down, a new one will open up. Remember that dogs will still be breed at mills, and they will find other petstores to be delivered too. Get rid of puppymills, then the petstores will be "starving" for puppies because they won't have anywhere to get them from, then there will be no "existing" petstore pups. :)

dogs and cats are not sold in pet stores in the uk anymore, i got my scampi from a pet shop and he was healthy all his life but then again the pet shop i got him from got its pups from proper breeders all over the uk and they all came with good pedigrees, kennel club papers and had been wormed vet checked and had all there jabs. i no if i walked past a shop with pups in it that were being treated badly i would buy them as i couldnt live with my self if i walked away, but i also no it would be wrong to buy them, there should be a law to stop dogs and cats being sold in pet shops in the usa, the ones that are already in the stores should then be pasted on to rescue centres to be re homed. however even if this was done the people who had the shops would still carry on breeding and selling the pups by putting them in the paper or on the internet, im not sure about the laws in the usa so i can only say about what i think should happen in the uk, we dont have dogs in pet shops now but we have problems with people who no nothing about breeding and just want to make money so over breed there dogs and weathers its a puppy mill with 50 breeding dogs or a crule woman who breeds her bitch every year over and over again its just as bad and should be stopped, i say every owner of a dog should have to have a licence which is renewed every year and has to be signed by a vet, then when someone breeds there dog all pups have to have one at 2 weeks old signed by a vet and the vet has to see the home of the pups before signing paper work, then the people who go to buy the pups will know that the pups are well bred, if the pups dont have paper work then the buyers of the pups wont buy them or if they do they will not pay as much so the breeders might be put off by not making so much money or the breeders will take more care of the pups and mothers so they can make good money, i also think the amount of money for pedigree breeds is just getting silly and all pedigree breeds should be the same amount and a reasonable amount so these horrible people who breed for money might be put off if they dont make that much money from breeding in the frist place, this shouldnt put off good breeders as for them the money isnt the object of breeding its to make the best of the breed for the good of the breed.

:bravo: :good job: :thumbs_up

Thank You Thank You...(taking a bow) :thumbs up

if the paper work ie licence was cheaper if dog is spayed then maybe more people would have it done so they would save money. if you think how much people pay these days for a pedigree pup its just silly and what makes one breed worth more than the next, set the price for all breeds take some of the money the breeders make by having all pups have a liecence make it law for a vet to vist each breeders home before signing paper work and then in time the lifes of these poor babies might get better.

pet shop puppy
 

My family and I were those that were "innocently ignorant" and purchased Reese from a local petshop. I had never known about puppymills but I did know a lot of people from my town who purchased their dogs from this petshop. I did make the decision to finally purchase a yorkie for my daughters and myself. We went into this store, which by the way is spotless, smells at times (although I think any home/business that had 40 to 50 dogs would have some type of unpleasant odor), extremely nice owner, large cages and many play areas for the dogs..etc etc.

We fell madly in love with Reese and purchased her and when she turned 7 months I realized that something was wrong with her. Suddenly when I held her, at all times, she would whimper. After practically forcing my vet to xray her, she was diagnosed with legg perthes. She also has developed a collapsed trachea or a weak traccea since when she is wearing her harness and walking.. which isn't too often since she prefers to be carried, she will as we call it honk continuously.

When we were told that she "probably" had legg perthes the owner of the store immediately asked us if we wanted to exchange her. I thought he was nuts. I had told him that after hour one, we were madly in love with her and would NEVER think of disposing of her like she was a pair of torn shoes that I would bring back to the store for an immediate refund. He did say he agreed and felt that he had to offer that option. He then told me he would return her entire purchase price and paid over $700.00 for several vet visits and a visit to a specialist.

Now I am not CONDONING pet shop purchases, nor will I ever do it again. I have become extremely outspoken about the puppymill/pet shop situation but I will not badmouth this particular owner. I will not recommend buying a dog from his shop, but by no means will I badmouth him. I feel that he did a lot more than many reputable breeders would have done. Since we are looking to purchase another yorkie I have been reading breeder contracts and have noticed that most will give you a one year guarantee on congenital defects and if one is found they will A. exchange the puppy
or
B. pay for vet charges for UP to the purchase
price of the puppy.
I am not a maven on this subject and please forgive me if I am misquoting what a possible YT breeders contract states, but I am merely stating what is in the majority of the contracts that I have read.

I know I am going off topic but I am coming to the question.. well maybe part of the intended question. The answer to your question is not a direct answer. As many already have stated the problem is not what will happen to those puppies already in the shops. They will be purchased or they will be rescued if they reach the age where they become less saleable. I have spoken to the owner of the shop where Reese was purchased, since I now am less ignorant than what I was. I asked him what he does with the older pups who do not get sold.. he said the majority of the puppies are sold. They will continue to reduce the price until they are sold. In the rare situation when even a reduced puppy does not get sold, he either gives them to the "In house" vet and he will adopt it out to one of his workers or patients family, or he does work with several rescue groups who he will surrender the puppy too.

That is the way that this owner operates. Again, I do not agree with his overall practices. I do not agree with anyone selling a living creature for a profit. And yes I am sure he pays about $50 to $100 for each of these puppies, maybe $200 at most from these mills and then turns around and sells them for $1500. I would say that is a huge profit.

But the Petshop like others said is NOT the main problem. The mills are the source of the problem and only the mill. Like others have said, if the mill was not able to breed these dogs the shops wouldnt have any inventory.. end of story. Local agencies have tried to get involved and have gone undercover to shut these mills down, but unfortunately there are always ways around it, due to the inaffective laws.

Getting the word out to others as ignorant as I was, of course will help to some degree, but certainly it will not put a dent in the nationwide problem. The laws surrounding all breeders have to be made far stricter than they are. Regardless if you are a private breeder or mill, I personally feel that stricter guidelines have to be put in place, state by state and then countrywide. The ignorant buyer is NOT the cause of this devasting problem, they are a minor component. Even the shop and the vets who work with the individual shops are not the cause of the devastation.. the MILLS and those who do not spay and neuter their dogs are the MAIN reason for the overpopulation and for all of the unhealthy dogs, ie: Reese who enter this world.

I do NOT regret the day that we walked into that petshop for one darn second. I would have never been blessed with one of the biggest joys of my life. With all of her illnesses she has added so much happiness to our family. I have spent a small fortune and probably will continue to do so..since I hope she will be with us for the next hundred years. Whatever it takes to make her comfortable and happy, we will do. For all of her health issues she makes up for it with the most incredible personality.

So in answer to your question.. don't worry about the puppies in the "window" of those stores... worry about the mills and getting the word out to your congressman to have the breeding laws changed.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I tend to get very emotional about this subject.

I appreciate your post (and a previous one) pointing out that the MILLS are the root of the problem, not the petshops, and of course that is true. I'm not trying to be argumentative, since I basically agree with everything you sd., except that I strongly disagree with THIS:

The buyers are the ONLY thing keeping the mills in business, aren't they? Or am I missing something? They may not be the ONLY component in the problem, but they are certainly a NECESSARY component. Take away the demand=no need for supply=the mill business dies. Yes?

And again, I probably come across as more dogmatic on this subject than I intend to. Some people feel passionately enough that they refuse to buy ANYTHING from a pet store that sells ANY animal. I find that admirable, but I'm not at that point myself, yet. But on the other extreme, it just sort of crawls all over me when people talk about "rescuing" an animal from a petshop. NO! All you've done is contribute to putting MORE animals in the exact same situation, and worse.

But again, good points that anyone passionately interested in "helping" the animals in pet shops could focus their efforts, not just on educating the public, and influencing the market (by refusing $$$), but by also lobbying for stricter laws, and contacting authorities about abuse cases you learn of, etc. Again....I'm not personally at that point yet myself, but for anyone saddened by the sad eyes of "that doggie in the window", striking at the ROOT of the problem is the only effective solution.

pet shop puppy
 

In a perfect world I would agree with you that if everyone stopped buying from mills/petshops this problem would be alleviated, unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world.

We can say this about every crisis worldwide. If everyone would stop buying drugs from major drug lords the drug crisis in schools nationwide would be ended. While the authorities attempt to crack down on large drug dealers as well as small time dealers, the problem will never really go away. While we continue to educate our children at home and school about the negative impact drugs will have on them, unfortunately we still have a huge teenage drug use.

We can try to stop prostitution by instilling steeper penalties for the prostitutes and their customers, but we will still have those who will prostitute themselves and those who will look to pay for sex.

I can go on and on and on with different situations where stiffer laws have been put in place and where people have said.. it is all supply and demand..."if we arrest people, if judges give out huge citations etc.. it still doesn't put a dent into any exisiting problems.

Like many have already said, mills will probably always exist (even if stricter laws were put in place), pet shops therefore will also always exist, and customers such as myself will always exist too. The only hope that this cause has is that people will become more knowledgeable over time, by joining sites like YT or hearing others horror stories such as my own. Maybe the 100 or 200 people if not more that I told my story to will think twice about purchasing a dog from a petshop. Right now we are lucky and Reese is doing great, but don't think I am not breathing a sigh of releif each morning when I see her wake up to run into the kitchen (without a limp) to partake in her favorite activity.. EATING!!!. I only hope that we are one of the lucky few who have purchased a dog that came from a miserable situation, but somehow through the grace of GD stays healthy and happy for many more years to come.

You are right.. I as many buyers do.. add to the problem. All I am saying is if the mill didn't exist, I wouldn't have been able to purchase her. Sadly enough on the other hand.. if they didn't exist I would have never been lucky enough to have Reese in our family. So I still do believe that the buyers are only a small part of this problem. I suppose it is like the old question.. which came first the chicken or the egg. I do see your point that if the buyer wasn't a willing and able party.. the mills would go out of business. I just do not see the amount of pet shop buyers diminishing in the very near future.

Sorry to again go off your topic of what will happen to the pet shop dogs.. all I can tell you is that most of them seem to be sold.

Pet shop dogs
 

I am sorry but since I can't seem to shut my mouth or get my hands tied in this case.. I have one last question.

Please keep in mind that Reese is our first dog.. I do not have any experience with breeders nor do I claim to know what are common practices but I will ask one question.

Why do breeders sell their animals to others, who probably have zero experience in breeding dogs? Wouldn't that too alleviate the problem of too many dogs, too many dogs bred under the wrong conditions, and the probability of dogs having various illnesses. Even if the bloodlines of the initial dogs are checked out by the reputable breeder, isn't it at all possible for some diseases/problems to show up in later generations. If a reputable breeder allows their dog to be bred by others, isn't this another added potential problem?

How does a breeder insure the quality of her/his pups down the road? Again please do not fault me for going off the topic (which I have clearly done now) and please do not fault me for once again being ignorant on breeding practices. It would just seem better to me if we had a group of licensed breeders who were required to do all testings necessary to insure quality pups, be monitored as most human daycare centers hopefully should or do get monitored, etc.. and leave it to the experts, instead of allowing anyone and everyone the ability to breed animals.

Why not force spay neuter contracts regardless of how healthy that particular puppy is?

Sorry if I am offending anyone, that is certainly not my intent. I would just like to try to understand all issues surrounding the problem of animals that are poorly bred.

OH, ok, I see what you're saying. And I tried to make the same point earlier too...if YOU pass up the petshop animal, MORE THAN LIKELY someone else will purchase it within the month. So yes, I agree that without (or maybe even with) stricter laws, mills will always exist. And as long as it's legal, some petshops WILL sell animals, and some people WILL buy them.

And again, I don't judge anyone who has stumbled into owning a petshop pet....I'm ecstatic for ANY person and animal who find each other and make a true love match. :p We bought our first guinea pig in a petshop, before I knew about the horrible overpopulation problem of guinea pigs, and that there are entire shelters devoted to them. And if you think dog people can be passionate about rescuing, you should meet the guinea pig fanatics. They take no prisoners. ;)

Re: your post about spay/neuter contracts (if I'm reading your question correctly)--I'm no expert either, but from what I understand many reputable breeders DO spay/neuter before selling their animals, or else it's required in the contract (won't provide papers without proof of spay, etc)

pet shop animals
 

I suppose some will ask us to go private, although I hope that won't be the case, since I think others input would be very helpful. I also believe that going off topic but still dealing with the same main problem ( pet shop puppies/mills) is just as interesting and educational.

I did not think that breeders normally do sell their pups with a spay/neuter contract. Again I could be very wrong. I was under maybe the false impression that the only time they did sell under those conditions is if the puppy is deemed to be pet quality. I again do not know if I am speaking the truth but I have only read a few that was sold on a limited.. something.. can't think of the word.. I apologize I am getting quite tired.

I thought that if the pet is considered show quality and meets with all of the appropriate yorkie standards they can be bred by others. I have no idea how extensive of a check the original breeder could do to see if the buyer is a qualified breeder. What determines that? Would a vet reference as to them being a good mommy or dad speak for their breeding abilities? I just do not know, but also feel that I have run into more than my share of breeders that had horrible living conditions for the animals and themselves, had no idea what they were doing, let the pups leave their moms at under even eight weeks old etc.

All I am saying is that there are so many facets of this problem. I again will NEVER purchase from a pet shop but with all of my friends and sisters research for a great breeder, they both ended up with two sickly dogs. I just think that the problem goes way beyond the ignorant buyer and pet shop owner.

Thanks for taking so much time in responding to me and for whoever started the thread, sorry I posted such long responses and went totally off the theme of the thread.

No problem, and don't you know all the best threads go off-topic? ;)

Maybe you can go to the breeder forum and ask what theythink the usual spay/neuter contract is, both with reputable and irreputable breeders.

It is very hard to resist that puppy in the window. I know I have been tempted many times to save a pet shop puppy. I notice that majority of the pet shops by me sell "akc" puppies thus charging more for the pups. I think if the akc made it so that you can only register a certian amount of litters per female per year that maybe it would help a bit.

I posted on this subject, sort of a few weeks ago when I discussed trying to sue the puppy broker/miller/store that we got a dog from.

She buys the dogs for $300 and sells them for $1500-3000 for a yorkie, maltese, or any other small breed. She has a reputation for selling sick dogs but she is selling puppy mill dogs. Everyone needs to stop buying from pet stores. And I like the regulations posted above which would stop the puppy mills--time for the kennel clubs,AkC and governments to get involved.