Strychnine in Chinese Herb called Double P II
 

Strychnos nux-vomica, the strychnine tree, also known as nux vomica(strychnine is toxic in large doses)
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323447

Nux vomica: Uses and risks
Nux vomica is the common name for a homeopathic medication that comes from the Strychnos nux-vomica tree, which is also called the vomiting nut or the poison nut tree.
Of the research that is available, it is essential to note that the studies may focus on one specific part of the plant, such as the flower, seed, or leaf.
Therefore, the results may not be the same for all parts of the plant.
Possible benefits of nux vomica include:
Antioxidant effects
A Chinese study noted that there are many different compounds in nux vomica that make it a potent antioxidant.
This research may show that nux vomica could have some potential benefits. However, the same study also confirms that the two major active compounds, brucine and strychnine, are poisonous at high doses.
Pain relief
A 2015 study found that the extract from nux vomica leaves has a promising analgesic, or pain-relieving, effect. The researchers said this could be due to the antioxidants in the plant.
However, the homeopathic treatment comes from the seeds, not the leaves.
Other researchers studied the effects of removing much of the strychnine from the seed. Their research found that removing this compound improved the analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects of nux vomica.
The researchers said that this was probably due to the presence of brucine. Brucine reduced swelling and markers of pain in an animal model. More research is needed to determine if it has the same effect in humans.
UNDER “OTHER RESEARCHERS”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378874111007914
Analgesic and anti-inflammatory activity and pharmacokinetics of alkaloids from seeds of Strychnos nux-vomica after transdermal administration: Effect of changes in alkaloid composition
Abstract
Ethnopharmacological relevance
Strychnos nux-vomica L. (Loganiaceae) is grown extensively in southern Asian countries. The dried seed of this plant, nux vomica, has been clinically used in Chinese folk medicine for improving blood circulation, relieving rheumatic pain, reducing swelling and treating cancer.
Aim of the study
This study was carried out to investigate the effect of removing most strychnine from the total alkaloid fraction (TAF) extracted from nux vomica on analgesic and anti-inflammatory activity and pharmacokinetics after transdermal administration.
(Strychnine represents up about 30%–50% in TAF composition extracted from the processed nux vomica. It is obvious that with the removal of most of the strychnine MTAF could display significantly increased therapeutic efficacy in antitumor, analgesic and anti-inflammatory applications.)

Materials and methods
Most strychnine was removed from TAF and the resulted modified total alkaloid fraction (MTAF) was obtained.The contents of strychnine and brucine in TAF and MTAF were determined. Then the analgesic and anti-inflammatory activity of TAF, MTAF, brucine and strychnine dissolved in hydrogel was compared after transdermal administration. Furthermore, in vitro and in vivo transdermal absorption profiles of brucine after administration of TAF, MTAF and brucine dissolved in hydrogel were also compared.
Results
In contrast to TAF, most strychnine was removed from MTAF and the ratio of brucine to strychnine was adjusted from 1:1.8 to 2.7:1. MTAF showed significant analgesic activity in all the chemical-, thermal- and physical- induced nociception models, which indicated the presence of both centrally and peripherally mediated activities. MTAF also showed significant anti-inflammatory activity against xylene-induced ear edema. But TAF and strychnine demonstrated little activity in all those pharmacological tests. Brucine showed to be effective in acetic acid-induced writhing and xylene-induced ear edema test. Brucine in MTAF was absorbed more completely than it alone at the same dosage of brucine after transdermal administration.
Conclusions
The results from the present study appeared to support the viewpoint that most strychnine should be removed from TAF to improve analgesic and anti-inflammatory activity. The relatively higher pharmacological activity of MTAF compared to brucine alone is partly due to the enhanced transdermal absorption of brucine.
The results from the present study appeared to support the viewpoint that most strychnine should be removed from TAF to improve analgesic and anti-inflammatory activity. The relatively higher pharmacological activity of MTAF compared to brucine alone is partly due to the enhanced transdermal absorption of brucine.




The main ingredients in Double P II are:

There are 21 ingredients that go into the making of Double P ll

Ba Ji Tian warms Yang and tonifies Kidney
Bu Gu Zhi tonifies Kidney Yang and strengthens bones
Chi Shao cools Blood and resolves stagnation
Chuan Niu Xi tonifies Kidney Yang and strengthens rear limbs
Chuan Xiong activates Blood and resolves stagnation
Dang Gui nourishes Blood, activates Blood, and relieves pain
Di Long clears internal wind and detoxifies
Du Zhong strengthens back and tonifies Kidney Yang
Fu Zi warms Yang and Channels
Gan Cao harmonizes
Gu Sui Bu strengthens bones and tonifies Kidney Yang
Hong Hua moves Blood and resolves stagnation and stasis
Huang Qi tonifies Qi
Ma Qian Zi activates Channels, relieves pain, and clears Wind-Damp AKA Nux vomica
Mo Yao resolves stagnation and relieves pain
Quan Xie resolves stagnation
Ru Xiang resolves stagnation and relieves pain
Tian San Qi moves Blood, stops hemorrhage
Wu Gong moves Qi and relieves pain
Xu Duan strengthens bones and ligaments, tonifies Kidney Yang
Xue Jie resolves stagnation

My first comment is that you are posting a link about humans using this "herb". We have small dogs. The link you share suggests removing some, but not all, of the strychnine. Strychnine is poison, pure and simple!
Perhaps you can share with us some links regarding scientific studies of the use of this compound or poison in dogs?
Your dog was sick and it appeared to be from the medicine....your vet lowered the dose because of it. He is your dog and you were very clear that you will do what your vet says which is totally up to you. I just want to be on record as having said that we should always question our experts....attorneys, doctors especially for ourselves and our pups...all experts. No one is perfect and mistakes can and do happen. But, beyond that, I can tell you that without some mighty convincing, scientifically proven (valid study, not one that someone has made to "look" valid) evidence, I would not be giving that strychnine "herb" to my pups.

Matters not if it's human or animal, the point is, strychnine is extracted from various parts of the tree making the usage less dangerous depending on if it's extracted from the flower, leaf or the most dangerous the seed/ nut, then broken down. You want scientific studies, you look for it. I don't have to defend the meds my pup was prescribed, you're the one screaming (in RED bold upper cap letters) Strychnine is in Double P ll. I am satisfied with the research I found before giving it to Cody.

You did the same thing back in 2014, demanding I should stop using my vet and take my dog to a vet training school. At that time my vet found Cody had a Stricture that needed major surgery to reconstruct. MY vet did that surgery and it was very successful and saved my dogs life.

Again you're telling me to seek another vet because she is using a herb you say has Strychnine in it.
If I was stupid enough to waste my time just to find you scientific studies on this herb you would still contradict the findings.

Cody had a bad reaction to this herb because of the dosage given, it has been decreased. As soon as he is back to eating his kibble and his stool is normal I will give the lesser amount my vet prescribed. If his system cannot handle it my vet will decide what the next step will be.
If you are concerned in dogs and helping ppl you shouldn't be so snarky with your questions.

fights and apologies
 

Put that post out here, on this board. After Ann posted to walk away you continued to add fuel to the fire. Show ppl how you snoop around searching ppl's "visitors messages". Why hide this message of yours, put it out here for all to see.

I don't know what your problem is, but I will simply say this:

I have never told you what vet to use and certainly never "demanded" that you go to another.

Strychnine is poison, no matter where it came from. YES I put it in red because I believe it is unsafe and want to advise others. You can continue to post how valuable it is in treatment for your dog and you can do what you want with your dog; but you cannot tell me not to warn others about its use. THAT is all I am doing here. Giving information to people to use as they please. As for MY wanting research, I don't want it ... I just "suggested" you share it for people who might be wanting to see the scientific proof you used in your decision to treat your dog with it.

If you have a problem with anything I post, and where I post it, report it and let the moderators handle it.

I have a genuine question. Is Cody still in pain? Just curious why you're pushing so hard to keep giving your dog the supplement still as I swore I saw he was wanting to play etc again. I very well may have missed something though.

Brit, I don't want to come off sounding disrespectful, I have a great deal of respect for you for the life you have given Jackson, the dedication you put into training him, and in all honesty I absolutely love action Jackson and his water / swimming antics, he is my most favorite pup on this board.
I really do not want to answer the question you're asking. Yes, he wants to play, that is not to say I allow it. I do understand your concern and curiosity as to "why".

The photo you posted of Jackson's camping trip is awesome, looks like alaskayorkie (Mike) took that action shot, is photography your hobby. :love:

To be fair, you are posting publicly on a forum so of course we are going to be curious. As I stated in your other thread, typically once a dog feels better, you stop medication (it's like when I have a sore muscle - I take ibuprofen for a few days and then once it feels better, I do not continue taking it, however if said medication had given me diarrhea, i'd likely stop using it). And then you opened this thread specifically about this herb, which would naturally lead to more discussion on a public forum. So I was genuinely just curious why this is a question you aren't answering... since you brought it to our attention and we care greatly for Cody of course.

If the dog is experiencing no further symptoms, what is the point of pushing to continue giving the supplement? Or at this point what was your reasoning for opening this thread?

I appreciate your kind words and am just truly confused, at this point, as to what exactly is going on with Cody and I care so much about all the pups on this forum that I think it's a fair question to ask since you brought it up initially.

No where is it stated Cody is experiencing no further symptoms.

The thread was started to show how Strychnine was broken down, how the use of leaves was not as dangerous as the seed from the Strychnine tree.

Strychnine is poison.

Maybe you started this thread to try and convince people it is safe but the bottom line is that you apparently have continued to give it to your pup even after he had side effects from it. I think it is fair for anyone on this forum to question this especially since he still has the same symptoms / side effects?

https://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...chinese-herbs/


https://skeptvet.com/Blog/2011/05/tr...nary-medicine/

This thread has nothing to do with my dog, it is to show how Strychnine is broken down, what ingredients go into the Herb Double P ll, to show not pure Strychnine is the only thing that is in this herb. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. People decide to use or to not use whatever their vet prescribes for their pet.
The bottom line is.....this thread is only to show what goes into this herb.

Cody is his lil ole perky self, still on the chic / rice, he wants to play fetch soooo bad it hurts me to have to ignore him because I don't know if he can go back to being active, bad enough he's jumping on and off the sofa and bed.

I'm sorry - I took that as he was wanting to act himself again, aka a sign that he is feeling better. Not saying you should *allow* him to go full force yet but the fact that he wants to, to me, proves that he is beginning to feel better. I just feel like at this point this herb would cause more sickness/damage than the initial injury. But you won't let us know how Cody is physically doing so it's kind of impossible to say or know. Either way, I wish him and you the best with everything. :)

For anyone who reads this thread in the future when it pops up on Google searches, here is some evidence of why I would never give this to my dog (and please note: I am not in any way against all herbs or natural supplements - many of them have their place and my vet approves of them, so this is not some vendetta against chinese herbs from my standpoint- simply THIS particular one).