Trust the breeder or ask more questions?
 

I found a breeder with a pup.
I already bought a plane ticket for when I need to go pick her up.
She sent me her contract today and it has the Sire and Dam's name.
I was able to locate the Dam's basic info and AKC registration name on the AKC website. The Sire, not so much.
I contacted the breeder asking about the issue because there is a CH before his name but it doesn't have the Breeders name in front of the dogs name. She responded saying that the dog is a friends dog that she often breeds with, and shows each others dogs occasionally and that the dog is AKC registered and is a champion.

She told me previously that the dog was a champ and sent me a picture of the dog at a show for being "best bred by exhibitor"

This breeder is listed on the AKC site, was recommended by a different breeder I contacted (also from the AKC list), and is listed as an active member in her local AKC chapter. I did my research and went this far with this breeder because I trust her. I've spoken on the phone with her several times and I believe she does genuinely cares about her dogs, her pups, and is passionate about what she does.

I guess I'm just a bit thrown off by her answer. I would like to be able to locate the Sire's info on the official AKC website as I am paying a good amount of money for a pup from her. I'm just not sure how to approach her now. I do not want to offend her. A part of me says just trust her, but who cares if the Sire isn't a champ or AKC registered. I just honestly want a happy, healthy pup. but another part of me, I am a bit hesitant.

any advice on how to approach this subject with her would be greatly appreciated.

I would strongly question WHY you are not readily given this information when you asked. In incomplete answer just brings forth more questions. You are not paying for the breeders opinion but for the evidence involved in the breeding/registration issues. Maybe the dog can't be registered for some reason and I would want to know that so I could decide how important that is to me.

Maybe others will way in on this issue.

ALWAYS ask more questions. Any breeder you want to purchase a pup from will be more than willing to answer all of your questions and never ever give you reason to question her responses. Furthermore, a reputable breeder will NEVER EVER give you reason to question his/her ethics, breeding practices, breeding stock, etc.

Always ask questions and if you don't get answers that you can verify by other sources, then find another breeder. Just because a breeder is "AKC" doesn't magically make them reputable, their breeding stock and pups healthy, and someone you want to do business with.

Listen to and follow your instincts. Good luck in your search for a pup.

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She responded to my email saying that yes he is AKC registered, has been shown and earned/won enough points showing to earn his AKC championship in conformation.

still no name that will help me look him up on the AKC website though. :(

then followed by an email asking me to let her know asap if I change her mind and decide to not get the pup.

I answered her honestly, saying that I honestly do not care if the sire or dam is a champion or not. I just like to do research on anything and everything, especially on big purchases that will become a life long commitment. and that I hope I didn't offend her.
She must be offended to have asked me if I was still going to purchase the pup.

I'm so torn now. I feel like she should've gotten the message by now and provided the dog's info to me. But I already purchased the plane ticket, already had my heart set on getting this pup etc.

I'm not sure how I should go about getting a straight answer from her about the Sire's info.

I told her that I honestly do not care if the sire or dam won any championships.
I care most about the health and temperament of the puppies. I let her know that I meant no offense for asking these questions.

She probably went to sleep but now I'm up late, bothered by this whole situation. I would really appreciate a name of the dog that would allow me to find him on the AKC website. She says he is AKC registered and is a champ but hasn't given me a name. just the CH (no breeder name) just dog's name. I did put in the dog's name only into the AKC website and both came up as females.

I want this pup, but the fact that she is not giving me straight answers and then asking me immediately to let her know if i changed my mind and no longer want the pup is bothering me. :(

If you are having this much trouble getting the name of the sire and AKC registration information, then take that as a huge, gigantic red flag. A reputable breeder who is proud of their stock would gladly provide that information.

The only way I can express my concerns about your breeder is to tell you about MY girls. I am always happy and ready to share my "bragging rights" about my bitches who are Champions. My Lolliepop's father, Jack, was the #1 Yorkie in America the year she was whelped and her mother was a Rothby. My Lacie's father was the one and only "Trip" who was one of the top producers in America. Lacie's brother is currently the #1 yorkie in America, Rudy, who was Best of Opposite Sex at Westminster last year. You better believe that if you were interested in purchasing a pup from me, you would have copies of AKC registration papers as well as pedigrees -- I am very proud of my girls and I am not shy about it :D.

I just feel like ANY breeder you want to do business with should be proud enough of their dams and sires to be straight forward and share any and all pertinent information. I would RUN, not walk from any breeder who won't give you straight answers.

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Some of us are so proud of our lineage and pedigrees, we have 8-10 generation pedigrees printed out.....tell the lady you want to get an embossed printed pedigree that you can order on line and you need to be able to supply some background names on the pup.

You can tell her you have been talking to some friends and you may want to double register your baby with the Canadian Kennel Club as well as AKC, and they need extensive pedigree information.....

red flag...

I have been down two very different roads in getting my dogs and my first road was paved with red flags I didn't listen to. go with your gut. This is why I went with a show breeder (the second time!) who didn't mind my husband flying to Canada to get him. She didn't mind my endless questions. I had none of this run around and game playing that sometimes goes on. ugh, so sorry for your stress-I know personally how difficult it is. hugs!!

This is a bit nonsesnsical.

You are right that asking questions of a breeder should be simple and welcomed by the breeder.

what you seem to muddle up is the fact that buyers often ask questions that in and of themselves are not going to reveal much or anything about whats has actually happened to a dog versus what someone (the breeder) tells you has happened to the dog.

it is also the case that there are different opinions on what best practice is and buyers get advice from one source that says they must do x or y and yet thats is not a given. when they dont get the answer they are told they should get they are then in a quandry.

I watched a BBC programme this week on choosing a puppy. They have a beghaviourist telling one family they shouldn't pick a puppy that was raised on a farm because it wasnt raised in a family setting and another family told it was fine to take a designer crossbreed puppy from a breeder that was clearly (not unreasonably) raising a litter in a purpose build kennel attached to their house away from a family environment.

When it comes to the OP - seems to me you are being asked to pay a lot for a puppy with a potentially dubious pedigree. That isnt necessarily a problem if you are paying fair market price and the puppy is otherwise healthy and the breeder seeming to do a reasonable job. Dont fall for champion sired if that means nothing for you and paying a lot more $$.

I agree that if a breeder is telling porkies that's a big red flag....a few white lies or omitting some information isn't the sign of the devil but it is an important consideration.

Hi- just wanted to say to op,
Not sure if backyard breeding and or puppy mills are a big problem in the UK ? Here in the usa, it's an epidemic I think I would say. For me, I didn't care anything about the actual pedigree, but what I wanted was a line that has been tested on both sides and being bred by someone who will only breed certain dogs to help the breed and not knowingly breed dogs with known issues in size or defects.

It is all very well people saying they are breeding to help the breed but what does this actually mean and who is to say who and what is helping the breed and what isn't ?

Breeders I come across are not some superhuman class, they reflect the general population. That is a general population that is largely scientifically illiterate, educationally average and subject to all the usual human biases and illogical thinking.

It isn't the responsibility of puppy buyers to sort out unethical breeders or those with superiority complexes and other issues.

As a buyer you have a responsibility to do the best you can to discourage people from cruel practices by reporting those breaking the law and not buying from them.

That goes as much for the back yard breeder as it does for the stuck up ignorant aloof breeder that thinks it is ok to pursue their hobby and churn out lots of puppies that whilst not good enough for them are good enough for other people because they are well.."helping the breed" etc....

As a buyer, if you buy a pedigree dog that is registered with your countries premier kennel club as a pedigree dog, you are doing more than enough to help the breed.

What does it matter to you if your dog has some champions in its background if you are not going to show them ? Sure it may be an indication of a certain quality but that's about it and there are plenty of other things that are far more important when picking a family pet.

It is extremely easy for someone to fake a dogs pedigree too.

Been there, done that. I now can look forward to very expensive LP surgery when my pup is old enough to add to her initial cost.
We need a source, an honest source, to identify or disqualify breeders.
Being "nice" or just doesn't work as an identifier.

I dont know your situation, but there are as many breeders with dogs with genetic problems as there are "backyard breeders" or at least enough to make the issue a difficult one if you are purely looking at the physical health of puppies AFTER you acquired them.

People naturally want to buy a dog that will be healthy but it is no different from humans really... some of the worst examples of humanity breed and have "healthy" kids and so it is for dogs.

People demand guarantees and assurances and sellers give them what they want. Much of it means nothing, it is spin and marketing.

many breeders don't make it easy for people to make an informed decision, the whole proces makes it hard because if you take too long puppies get sold.

However you buy, get insurance for at least the dogs first year and be willing to go to training classes and put in a lot of effort to train your dog.

Owners are at least as guilty as breeders when it comes to outcomes for dogs. They ignore advice, tell you they know it all, take a dog and largely only start really trying to learn anything once a problem arises.

Vets get things wrong. They will sell you all sorts of crap, fail to manage their clients and could do a lot better in many areas.

So the whole thing is a potential nightmare for everyone involved because of human and animal frailties and yet somehow most of us manage to muddle through.

If you are buying a dog it pays to take someone along with you that can take a dispassionate view of the breeder and what they say. They will help you make a more rounded decision and shouldn't hold up the decision making process.

I will say what others have said. You have the right to know the AKC registered name and number of both sire and dam - in particular if she is selling these pups advertised as from 2 AKC champions.

I would think her response of let me know if you have changed your mind is that she likely has someone else interested in this pup or at least she wants you to think she has. There is simply no good reason for a breeder not to be clear on the details of the parents. Full stop.

I agree and OP needs to be clear that telling the seller what you want is not a good idea.

She is effectively saying - tell me x and I will buy from you.

There is also no breeder or vet out there that can tell you what the health and temperament of a puppy is going to be - even if they were clones

All you can do is look for evidence that you will probably have a relatively healthy dog with a typical temperament for the breed and put the work in to train your dog and keep it healthy.

Are you getting the pup with limited AKC registration? I do know that some reputable breeders will not give any papers or numbers out until after proof of spay or neutered is provided. They do this to prevent people from registering their dogs with unreputable dog registries that only require a AKC number to register a pure bred dog.

That makes sense -- receiving papers after proof of spay and neuter. That is how it worked with my pet boys. But, I had confirmation of the sire at time of purchase, which I think is what the OP is looking for.

AKC registration of breeding dogs requires periodic renewal/tests, correct? Maybe the owner of the sire didn't keep the registration up to date.

The AKC number would not tell anything other than the name of the dog it is registered to. Also AKC requires that every sire producing seven or more litters in a lifetime or producing more than three litters in a calendar year must be AKC DNA Profiled. That DNA profile does not tell anything about the health of the dog.

It all comes down to knowing and trusting your breeder before you buy and if you are a breeder, knowing and trusting the person you are selling your pup to. Just because a pups parents are healthy and champions does not guarantee that the pup will be. That is why it is important to have a good health contract and to buy from a reputable breeder that will honor the contract if something goes wrong.

Thank you for the clarification on the sire registration/DNA profiling.

I agree with you about the trust factor and health contract.

Maybe I misread the OP, but it sounds like she couldn't find the sire listed by name on the AKC site and that makes her nervous. That would make me nervous too, if all I had was a photo from the breeder.

To find the sire on the AKC site she would have to have the exact spelling. I am not sure how you would look up someone else's dog on the AKC site. I have never tried to do it.

It would make me nervous too buying a puppy from someone I do not know. There are many scammers out there but it sounds like this person was recommended and is reputable if she is dealing with the person she thinks she is.

To me it doesn't sound like you're going to get a straight answer from this breeder. My breeder was more than happy to tell me all the info about the dog parents, grandparents and even went as far as giving me the puppies pedigree. They're so proud of their little champions and they've introduced me to the breeders they've bred with.

It sounds like you're giving her all the information to ensure her that you'll be a good and responsible pet owner. She, on the other hand, is giving you red flags on how she's probably not the most reputable and kind of sketchy: 1) not telling you info on the sire, 2) pressuring you about the purchase. Honestly, no good breeder will do either of these.

If health is the primary concern, as it should be, I would caution you to buy your puppy from this breeder. Better safe than sorry. It's not worth the risk. Don't let your sense of urgency and impulse get to the better of you. Take your time and make sure you feel 100% good, gut/facts and everything, before you buy your puppy!

The thing is, a lot of breeders, good or bad, can genuinely care about their dogs. A backyard breeder could most definitely love their dogs and be passionate about breeding dogs. It doesn't mean their bloodline is good and healthy.

eek! I would caution you to NOT buy from this breeder!! :eek:

Hear Hear!!! I had the same thing happen. My first pup had Liver Shunt and quickly became a 10 thousand dollar Terrier. My second I bought after fully checking her lineage for 4 generations back. Do not buy if it doesn't seem right!

sorry, but never just trust a breeder. Not unless you know them prior and know more information. We found out recently that Chewie isn't even from this state, but a known puppy mill state. The breeder has several violations, mostly from rotted puppy and adult teeth. The breeder sold over 100 in a year and a half to mostly pet stores in the area. Shes' not even AKC registered, and the breeder TOLD me she was. She has papers, yeah, from that other site. I have to get some sort of an exception from AKC and it's going to be a big pain in the butt.

Ask all the questions you can, and don't feel badly about it. I asked everything I thought was important.

*adding we got her from a third party- who was HIGHLY rated. And came recommended.