a question about genetics, I guess.
 

I’ve read that it really doesn’t matter so much what the mom or dad weigh....a three pound dog can have a puppy that grows to be 12 lbs, and vice versa. Right?

Is the same true of body shape, muzzle length, hair texture or color, etc? Say I’m looking at purchasing a “pet quality” puppy (which I am), and I see the mother--say her body is longer and thinner than I care for, or her hair is more silvered than I personally like–how much is this a factor in the kind of puppies she will produce?

Or is it as random as it is in humans? (Ie: kid can be the spitting image of mom or dad, or kid can be the spitting image of great great uncle so-n-so who know one even remembers anymore, or kid can be the perfect blend of both parents, or kid can look like the mailman. :D)

There ya go! ;)

The best way to tell what kind of dog you're going to end up with is to look at the parents and grand parents...at least. That should give you a good idea!

you can sometimes see a resemblence to mom and dad at a very young age. My last litter of 4 they all looked different some were short and stout some were long and lean. Chances are you baby will be pretty. What does the dad look like? Does the pup seem to be taller and longer than the other's? Compare them all if you are able. Do you have pics of your possible pup?
It is alot like humans.

It's my night for posting novels, I guess... Here's a copy of Goldenray yorkies info on coat color genetics for a started primer. There's much more involved when looking for further characteristics....and y'all thought this breeding stuff was easy, huh? LOL!
Genetics of Coat Color
Of The Yorkshire Terrier

The Yorkshire Terrier is born Black&Tan (B/T)and should change all black body hair to a dark steel blue as an adult dog. The blue body coat can change color at any time after 8 weeks. I’ve heard it said that early breakers are always light. I do not find that the case. I have had them break blue by 12 weeks & stay an extremely dark blue all their lives. I have also had later breaking ones go lighter blue than I preferred. The tan is a rich golden tan that keeps darkening with age. The golds seem to keep deepening in color up to about 3 years of age.

I know there is some confusion, because people assume black is a dominant color in Yorkies. Per Malcolm Willis’ “Genetics of the Dog” the genetic makeup is of a B/T dog, which is a recessive color to black, it is not a matter of simple dominant black. B/T is the only gene the Yorkie should be carrying for pattern. The blue coloring is created at another loci. A solid black dog carries the genes AA or A with anything else. The B/T carries a(s)a(s), which is the B/T with a saddle. Anytime an upper case letter is shown that’s the dominant & lower case is the recessive. a(s)a(s) shows this as a recessive color. As we go on remember the Yorkie is a B/T dog, but since I will be talking about achieving blue color vs black color, for ease of writing and understanding I will drop off the tan.

The only way a Yorkie can achieve blue color is if they are carrying the Graying gene. Now geneticists refer to it as graying, but in our breed we call the achieved color blue. This is the gene that effects the blue color on breeds that are born one color & turn blue later in life. GG will give you a blue dog and Gg will give you a blue dog, but is carrying the recessive for non blueing and gg will give you a black dog, as this is the non blueing gene. Some confusion comes from people not understanding how they get a black soft coated dog from a breeding of two blue silk dogs. If you are breeding together two dogs that are both Gg then they are both carrying the recessive gene for non blueing and if the two gg genes for non blueing get together it will result in a black dog. When the dog is Gg, the dog will be blue as the dominant gene is G which is what causes the color blue and will exhibit that color. When the dog is gg, the only gene they have is the non blueing gene, so they also can only exhibit that color which will be the black color. Dogs that are born blue carry the dilute gene of dd, which should also not be in the Yorkshire Terrier breed, although that is what would cause the “Blue born puppies”.

When you breed together two Gg dogs, your chances of mostly blue dogs is very good. Since the dogs in question are blue dogs as they are Gg, G being the dominant and the dogs exhibit that color, but carrying the g which is a recessive they are able to pass that recessive on to the resulting puppies from the mating. The chances of the g sperm from one dog getting with the g egg from the other are not going to be real great but it will occur. Most times the G of one will end up with the g of the other and you still end up with a blue dog. Not to say that the odds are not against you and you end up with a litter of soft coated black puppies. We all know from breeding dogs that nothing holds true 100%.

I know a lot of people breed their black Yorkies, as they feel they have a lot of benefits. This is fine, but I would only breed one to a blue dog. Keep in mind that the blue color is dominant here and the black recessive. A black dog can only throw a recessive gene and if bred to another black dog the resultant puppies will also be black.

An example of a Brussels Griffon litter I had. I bred two rough coated Griffs together. I new the sire had a smooth parent which meant he was carrying the recessive smooth gene. In 6 generations on my girls pedigree there was not a smoothy there and assumed she didn’t carry the smooth gene. Low and behold I had 2 smooths out of 3. So this girl was carrying a recessive that has been passed along for atleast 7 generations unseen & finally popped up under the right circumstances.The same can be true of blue silk dogs. You can breed along for many generations assuming you have locked in the color & texture & out pops a black soft coated puppy. The recessives were there hiding within those two parents & finally come together.

Recessive genes are wonderful if they’re for the quality you want. In two generations you can totally lock something in your line (such as long hair). The problem can be with dominants, you can breed for it, but you almost always have to continue breeding for it or those little recessives keep sneaking in there. As I mentioned with the Brussels Griffon, they can be passed along for many generations before they actually appear or get the chance to appear.

Density of the shade of blue can be bred for, by selecting dark steel blue whenever possible. This does seem to be a quality that you can lock into with fairly much regularity. As with all the other things in breeding dogs though, when you expect something, always be prepared for something else.

Article printed in TYT Magazine

Cali didn't look at all like her parents and completely different from her 2 sisters although her coat seems to resemble her fathers which isn't too good. With my last Yorkie, Gracie her mother was real light silver and had weird eyes, they were like on the side of her head, Gracie turned out beautiful, she was light like her mother but had the cutest face and her coat was beautiful. I kept her in a long coat and she looked like a show dog. She did have champion bloodlines. I just find when I go to look for a puppy I fall in love no matter what it looks like.

My dogs had pups on May 22, Zowie is around 8-9 pounds, bronx 6. The two boys are 10#, the girls are 6 and 3#. The boys are both still black, Quattro has practically no lighter hair in his black and his head hair is silver. Teddy is getting a little lighter but his gold hair has always been dark gold, and getting darker. Trina and Robyn lost there black very young, gold is light gold.

To me, Teddy looks much like Zowie, the others have shorter noses like Bronx. Bronx has very curly hair - none of the puppies are curly like he is.

Zowie has a longer body, bronx is square. The pups are all square. boys are both taller than mom, weight about the same.

I feel their facial and body characteristics were very noticable at least by 8 weeks and have not changed that much. Maybe their legs were still short back then, but they looked sorta like balls.

that is my one experience. note: All Yorkies are adorable - no matter their size or shape - I love ALL of mine the same, just have to be more careful of my tiny girl. I think 10# are the most huggable ;)

ZZzzzzzz....THUD! Francie struggles back into the computer chair...blinking at the screen...ponders why "Nice N Easy" wouldn't be a simpler choice...

Francie

Well, my question was mostly hypothetical. :D I do have a breeder that I’ve visited with who I really like, and I adore her doggies and her approaches to raising and breeding them. However, you know how it is...some seemed cuter to me than others! :p Since yorkie puppies change SO much as they get older, I guess I was wondering if I should avoid ones from a litter if I wasn’t terribly fond of mom’s looks.

But...I guess :D....going from the responses here...it’s all sorta a crapshoot?

BTW Patti, I was just admiring your avatar on another thread. Cali is SO adorable. And sorta an unusual color too, or is it just my monitor? Anyway...VERY cute! I should just hope to end up with such a doll!

Genetically - all things being equal - puppies are most apt to resemble their parents. These will be strongest genes that a puppy inherits. But, we have to remember that a puppy will also inherit some genes that go back several generations.

No one can guarantee the size a yorkie pup will become. There are, however, many clues that help us get we want. First and foremost - look at the dog's parents - secondly learn about their grandparents or further back, if possible.

Also experienced breeders (not me) can tell some things about a puppy when it is first born - and, they can tell more about a pup when it is a few months old. Most puppies that are very small and stay small their first few months will probably not grow up to be a large Yorkies.

My Yorkie's mom weighs 12 solid pounds. His father weighs 4 pounds (4 1/2 pounds on a good day). These two dogs have had several litters, and most of their pups have become about 6 pounds - full grown. But a few have been smaller and a few have been larger. Just what we'd expect - right!

However, after all is said and done --- I think the best that most of us can do is pick out a little puppy, and hopefully, see its parents. This along with being able to talk to the breeder should give us a fairly good idea of what the little pup will end up being - as far as size, color, etc. go.

You always take some chances when you have a child (or even adopt a child) or get a new little puppy. But don't we love them anyway!


Carol Jean

OK, here is my final opinion. If you love the way the PUPPY looks, you will always love him/her and will always see that same adorable baby forever.

OH MY GOD Francie...you have me busting a gut with that one...and also made a good point. Doing this kind of homework and actually Learning about genetics before breeding your dogs can be very dry stuff and complex, but really is essential background study to be able to have the slightest clue about outcomes. Sheesh, this was a lightweight, user friendly article...I'd send you my fave genetics book, but I can't afford the shipping charges. LOL!

I dont know if seeing the parents always works because when I got Lady the parenst were there.Ladys mom was beautiful,she had the longest coat and weighed about 7lbs,also she was blonde.
Her dad was more stocky (he looked a little smaller than her mom but I dont know how much he weighed exactly) and his coat was also long but thick and he was black and tan.Of course Lady was to young to see what she´d end up like,but seeing the parents I at least thought shed have a beautiful long coat which Id need to cut every now and again.
Now at 2 years old,shes stayed at 2lbs and although her coat has a nice texture (easy to brush,straight etc) it doesnt grow AT ALL.
Iv never cut her hair and never had to,its about 3 inches long (in some places shorter) and there its stayed:(
My other yorkie Jess has the same father as Lady but a different mother,again the mother has a wonderful long coat.Jess looks more like her parents (her father in particular) BUT again she has the short coat:( Iv never cut it and although its texture is lovley,its short.The longest strands are 3 inches long and in the shortest places its just over an inch:(
Whats up with that???

i loved that genetics post by sylvan. but then again, i am a huge nerd.

puppies
 

The first 3 generations are so important. Of course, big Yorkies produce small and small produce big..but it is not a complete crap shoot. If you have a line of average size Yorkies..4 to 6 pounds..you should not get a huge variety of size..you might get a smaller pup quite often, but rarely a huge one in a consistant line.

"Type" is genetic..you can not breed two large head terriers and expect a short muzzle and small ears. I have not seen a terrier type pup come from two cute, refined heads. The pups may not be as refined as the parents, but they do not look like Silkies either.
If you put apples in the pie pan, blueberry pie ain't coming out of the oven...although some people sure get a better apple pie then others.

I'll save you a seat on the front of the bus...gotcher pocket protector handy? lol

Pat, I'd be grateful for a slice of any pie you bake...

This is what I have learned ...that it doesn't "have to be" a crap shoot if the breeder has experience and knows his/her lines. A good breeder who has studied and knows the genetics of their dogs and has carefully selected complementry matings will be able to fairly accurately predict (with no guarantees) the basic traits of the puppies of the produce.

I also heard that the father's genes tend to be more dominant than the mother's....does anyone know if this is true? Do most puppies take on more of the father's traits than the mother's?

LOL Pat...!!!! I love it - Coming from someone with 30 years experience - you sure have a GREAT WAY with making things simple and easy to understand....

I just LOVE my 2 little Apple Pies !

Very good point on knowing the lines. :thumbup:

From what I have learned the mother's genes take dominance on certain traits and the father's on others. Also, if it is an inherited disorder, it is MORE LIKELY (not always) that it came from the mother as most inherited disorders are mitochondrial diseases. I have a specific list of these somewhere...I will try to find it. Probably at home...

:lol tears :lol tears :lol tears
I just remember the pea plants in school and it's all lost from there.

If you do not like the parnets of the puppy IMHO why would you want to purchase the offspring? I would hope that when you purchase a puppy you would like the parents. You are looking at what a lot of the puppies that your kid can have will look like. I would also encourage you not to buy a pet quality puppy to breed. I see a whole lot of the parents and grandparents when I look at the babies.

Color you can play with by who you breed the female with- but unless you know the lines it is a crap shoot on your part. You can still get the undesired color.

Yup. The breeders I saw were all very experienced and either trying to get the ideal standard or tweaking it a bit for their taste. The dogs (even from different lines) looked very similar. A breeder that is less experienced will probably have more variety for a while until they get the look they are after.

Unless you know the lines of the dog's or any animal that you intend to breed it is a crap shoot. That is why when some first start breeding they are using animals of the quality that should not be bred. When you use a pet quality puppy that is not of breeding quality you are not going to improve the breed.
When you do a outcross you really have to know your lines- because anything can happen. That is why many breeders do some linebreding with a certain percetage being a outcross. You can know your lines and still come out with a- not going to breed those two again experience. Breeding is not a exact science as most of us are not able to manipulate which gene we want dominat. Down the road yes but not for the hobby breeder/dog fancier of today.

You can do some wonderful matches on paper and not have what you want turn out in the puppies. You may have a litter of two wonderful girls- but a small gene has become dominant and you have two tiny pets too small to show and IYO too small to breed.

IMHO it takes two parents to make a baby or a puppy with both parents providing 50%. The only thing that we give dad credit for is determination of the sex. Mom gets credit for the number of eggs available and fertile.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kathy, Stacy, Carol Jean, and all of you. I just want to say thank you for all the information that you post here. I copy and paste many breeders posts and save the info to an e-mail that I send to myself and then store permanently in my folders so I can reread it again later.... You really do help many people like me that have many questions in the back of their minds , but don't get around to asking...
__________________

Oh no, *I* will not be breeding.

I know that hobbiest breeders can be controversial, but I really like this family. Their only goal is to produce standard size yorkies of good health and temperament, that will be good pets. She is VERY against breeding deliberately for the smaller sizes because of health issues, and wouldn’t dream of breeding her smaller females, though her stud is I believe about three pounds.

(This isn’t just “telling me what I want to hear”. She told me all this when I was just starting to do my research, and didn’t know about the whole “teacup” issue.)

I’ve been in her home, and ALL her dogs are raised as loved pets, and wonderfully socialized. They all appeared to be around the seven lb range or less, have had no congenital health problems, etc. She does, I know for a fact, have a lot of pleased repeat customers.

Breeding *is* something they just do to bring in some extra money, and because they enjoy it. But the health and happiness of their dogs come first–she doesn’t wear out her bitches just because they’re cash cows. Since I’ve been in contact with her for some period of time, I know that they don’t breed NEAR as many times as they could, given the demand.

I’ve not made a deposit, or any other kind of firm commitment to her at this time, so I haven’t asked her EVERY question. Other than the ways I’ve mentioned that her breeding program is very controlled (health and temperament were my first concerns, and questions), I don’t know all the ins and outs of her approach to the obvious cosmetic genetic issues that might be another’s first concern. I don’t even *know* if she breeds *every* one of her females at some time or other, so my original question here was more of a curious nature, in case that particular scenario *should* come up. And, just because I’m inquisitive about stuff! :p

As for bloodlines, her bitch that “started it all” is adorable in both looks and nature (though now retired), as is the little stud. I’m confident in the intelligence and ethics of this breeder on many levels, and that is as important to me as “what the puppy looks like”, or I would have purchased one already, from a faster and cheaper source. I’m definitely not jumping into anything, and won’t commit to a puppy if it doesn’t feel right.

Thanks for all the thoughts, knowledge, and advice!

Good for you JiggetyJig!! Way to do your research and get it right!! :thumbup:

You have made our day when you do the research and put the time and effort into buying that puppy. This means that we have done our job made you and us think. When I want to buy another dog or breed- I have a set group that I talk to about my ambitions. It sure helps to have another set of eyes and ears to listen too and look at my pedigree goals. Do I always listen no- but most of the time. Have I been burned yep I have had my paws burned to a crisp- but go on tomorrow is another day. Hopefully I can pass on what I learned from those bad experiences to others. I do not want some one else to get hurt when I held information that could have prevented it.

OK, got home and found my info. I really wish I had kept up with everything better, but I'll give you what I've got. These are the major mitochondrial disorders prevelant in canines:

* Epilepsy (myoclonic)-NOT to include seizures resulting from injury/trama or due to an axiety (ie, a dog that has seizures during thunder storms) was studied in great detail by the AKC Canine Health Foundation
* Certain types of Dermititis
* Demodex-lack of specific T-cell production used as an antibody that causes certain forms of mange due to exposure of microscopic mites found on MOST dogs
* Deafness (Mitochondrial Encephalomyopathy)-not every possible cause of deafness, just one very prevelant type...this type IS more common in smaller breed dogs

Also, when I was actually looking into this last spring/summer, The University of Cambridge was conducting research to determine what nervous disorders in dogs could be attributed to this--they suspect this will account for a large number. They had determined it could be a contributing factor in heart failure due to a condition where the canine heart doesn't fully function properly when the dog is excited or partaking in strenuous activity/play. I think (if I can read my own dang writing!) that it is more prevelant in large breed dogs.
I did write a few sites down:
http://www.geocities.com/welshealth/...ng%20Inherited
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00323.htm
http://www.geocities.com/welshealth/.../CANINEEPI.htm (This one was released by AKC and the Canine Health Foundation.)
Also, when I was looking into it, I read (most) of a book written by Rommy Faversham, "Inbreeding to Superior Females." It was mainly about linebreeding, which I honestly was clueless to at the time, which is why I read it, but it went into alot of details about genetics as it relates here as well.

Hopefully this will make sense--it has been several hours since my other post! ;)

post
 

Thank you..these are problems passed to offspring by the female..very interesting.

Yep. Short story of why: ok, ya know the 1 egg and 1 sperm thing to make a pup, obviously. Genes are carried in the DNA, in the nuclus of each cell. Genes are also present in and inherited in the DNA outside of the nucleus in the mitochondria...a separate set of DNA. Egg cells have mitochondria, sperm cells don't. Therefor, any disorder/trait/disease that results from the DNA in the mitochondria rather that the nucleus HAS to come from the female. (Same thing w/ humans and male-pattern baldness.)