Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4345346)

You didn't read? How then do you keep current with new and the ever advancing health knowledge that is underway? THat is very short-sighted of you.

And yes milllions of dogs are spayed but the research is building the preponderance of evidence that in actual fact they do NOT live long and HEALTHY lives. Most especially in these early days in North America for the large breed dogs.

Surrendered dogs has nothing to do with with a spay and neuter policy, surely European countries have proved this claim false. Responsible folks will quite frankly be responsible if they have the education and the tools to be so. Responsible folks are the ones neutering their animals, because they thought it was always the best overall thing to do, for the health of their dog, to insure that THEY don't contribute to the pet over population problem. Irresponsible folks are the ones contributing to the pet over population problem. Ya know the ones out to make a buck? The commercial pet breeders, the stores that sell to any Tom Dick or Harry, and your neighbourhood back yard breeder.

And btw the argument can be at this point in research time be made, that the "when" is particularly important for all dogs, males or females, large or small. So if a six month delay beyond the usual six month old time frame for de-sexing generates a 50% decreased overall health risk across the board, why not wait?????? And in fact get the vets educated in other surgical procedures for stopping procreation. Tubal ligation, vascetomies are very viable options and keep the important sexual hormones happening.

I do encourage you to do the reading.

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy (Post 4345292)

One risk to staying unaltered is pyometra....with each heat cycle, the risk of pyometra increases. If you end up with a closed pyometra it is usually recommended to spay as it's hard to treat an infection that has no way of draining itself from the body...you end up with a swollen, inflammed, pus-filled uterus...riskier surgery, especially on a tiny one.

Originally Posted by IDPiper (Post 4345376)

I have been doing some research on this and I found some interesting information on a Labrador Retriever forum and they say you should not spay your dog with an inverted vulva until she has had her first heat because that will correct it and prevent a lifetime of UTI's. Do lots of research and make an educated decision based on your research opposed to following blindly. ;)

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4345391)

This is the risk that scares me the most because can't it kill in 24 hours?

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4345393)

Do you have links for Amy to read on this?

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4345359)

At this point in time, my contract is being modified to disallow de-sexing prior to full maturity for my large breed dogs. if done my health warrantee is null and void.... That is how serious I believe is, the deleterious effects of early spay and neuter for my large breed.

My personal experience with multiple studs and females in the same home, environment is mixed. Even when my female was in heat, my BRT and my YT full males did not mix it up. Came close, and standing heat is not something that is easy to go through with two full males in the home, but they did just okay together. Also I was on vacation for a week with at least three full YT studs and one BRT stud with 8 females of which only one was de-sexed. No male problems YT on YT or BRT to male YT's not of his pack.

ON the other hand, I have had BRT males I have had to keep a very wide margin of space with my male BRT.

In summary, I guess it truly depends upon the character of the dogs, which is something that is not evident until full maturity.

My experience in training and in multiple performance sports and venues, the most aggression often comes from de-sexed males, followed by de-sexed females, followed by older full females.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4345094)

There are many many scientific reasons to spay. The one I know most is mammary cancer when they are spayed before there first heat they have a 0.05% chance of developing it! spayed after first heat they have an 8% chance then after the second heat it raises to 26% and so on. I am positive there is more scientific research. There is an infection that can happen that if your dog gets it they have 24 hours and if you don't realize it and get them treatment for it soon enough your dog dies this infection only happens in un spayed females. Then there is the fact if you ever have to board your dog or have some one else watch them what happens if they go into heat while your gone and the boarder or babysitter is not careful and you end up with a pregnancy when you have done no health testing on your dogs or know there lines so you are putting your dog in danger because pregnancy in even the healthiest females can be dangerous but your bring puppies into this world that could later have genetic issues pop up of just be sick and suffer there whole lives. Also if your female dies you are stuck feeding puppies every 2 hours for at least 6 weeks. Then there is the fact that Yorkies are high on the stolen list and there are people who will watch you see you have a Yorkie and break into your house and steal your dog then when they find out it's not fixed bingo they hit the jackpot and it's worth a lot more money and could be sold to a puppy mill and or back yard breeder putting your dog in a life of hell.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4345469)

My foolishness comment was because I fear way to many people will use this as an excuse to not spay or neuter who have no right to do that because they put there dog outside alone or just honestly don't care. When we are taking about risking that with any dog let alone a breed that has very small dogs this can be a big risk and also leads to many many "accidents" we have seen it in the breeding section. I also feel larger dogs are much different then small dogs due to how big they grow and how long that takes. Its kinda funny how with everything human and dog people are coming out saying all these things that are wrong with everything yet there are people who have had many dogs and spayed and neutered or say fed the worst food ever and or human scraps there whole life and there dogs lived to be VERY healthy and VERY old and there are many I know and have heard about. I'm not so quick to believe that what people have been doing for many many years is all of a sudden "dangerous" I think we need to look more at our environment.I do think it is strange that when a female human gets "spayed" they have to take hormones the rest of there lives and I think that should be looked at more with female dogs.

Originally Posted by ColesMommy01 (Post 4345584)

Ppl I've realized will always find a reason to or not to do something whether or not they have scientific research to back them up. ;) If one is a responsible pet owner they would look at both the pros and cons of altering their pets without having the procedures done. And will not do anything permanent based on other's opinions. My vet tried to push me into having my husband's bulldog fixed for the very reasons you have previously mentioned. After lots of research I decided that this was not the best choice at the time and I would revisit the issue after she turned 2 which by then she should be done growing(bulldogs have a high chance of not waking up from desexing surgery I also found out many are allergic to anesthesia...a risk I'm not willing to take with my Roxie).There are other alternatives such as tubal ligation etc that one could do instead of desexing completely. For the statement you made in bold about a human hysterectomy and along the same lines menopausal women. If a human female would have to continue taking hormonal supplements because they're lacking wouldn't it go to show those hormones have a purpose other than reproduction? And wouldn't that stand for females within a different species? Just because something was done 50 years ago and you haven't dealt with any ramifications doesn't mean that it didn't have any adverse effects. People 50 + years ago didn't think smoking cigarettes would have a negative impact on our health either. Medical discoveries about what is recommended/safe change consistently.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4345589)

Everything in life is mostly based on what people have experienced that's why so many believe in only what they can see. There are many people who smoke there whole lives and never have any health problems then there are ones who smoked for ever and got sick some it will happen to and some it wont it also depends on your genetics and other stuff as well and that matters in dogs too. I think if hormones are a problem then why are vets not looking into hormone pills for dogs like women? I have yet to here of a reputable breed in the US that does not have a spay in neuter contract so when getting a dog that the breeder does not know there past and genetics that it would be even more important to spay and neuter. I do not know about other breeds but yorkies don't have the same anesthesia problem. After reading and seeing the professional view that emergency spaying is dangerous what happens if you do have an accident with a 3 pound little yorkie what do you do risk her life in a free whelp or hope she can carry them long enough and handle a c-section. Are you also gonna keep all those pups forever sense its your fault they are brought into this world with no testing done? and what are you gonna do if the mother doesn't make it? I personally feel the pros out weight the cons with yorkies. There are way to many "accident" and people not knowing what they are doing to have unaltered dogs in my opinion.

Originally Posted by ColesMommy01 (Post 4345596)

Lung/throat cancer caused by smoking has nothing to do with genetics. Neither does issues associated with second hand smoke. It's cause and effect. The cause is smoking cigarettes the effects are certain types of cancer...it even says so on the cartons...most breeders do have a spay/neuter contract. With all medications they have for pets I doubt they don't have hormone therapy also. I haven't searched for it because my pets are intact, but it would definitely be something worthwhile to look into. If I ever found myself in a situation concerning a pregnant 3 lb yorkie I would consult with my vet and make a decision based on the information provided about what would be best. If a free whelp/c section was advised I would do my best to place them in good homes or I would keep them. I can not say 100% what I would or would not do because I have never been in that particular situation. You feel the pros outweigh the cons...I feel they do not, or at least require further research.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4345818)

Not all people who smoke get cancer.........

Originally Posted by amyazer (Post 4345887)

I wanna spay her the question is when and whom can I trust...but like everyone said I need to research a person I would trust n when would be a good time.

Originally Posted by IDPiper (Post 4345376)

I have been doing some research on this and I found some interesting information on a Labrador Retriever forum and they say you should not spay your dog with an inverted vulva until she has had her first heat because that will correct it and prevent a lifetime of UTI's. Do lots of research and make an educated decision based on your research opposed to following blindly. ;)

Originally Posted by Marhcarter (Post 4346040)

If she has a physical problem (introverted or prolapsed vulva) that is causing infections, then I believe the sooner the better. I would hate for her to get a bad infection that ended up affecting the function of other organs, like the kidneys. I would just do some research on small animal practices & see who has the experience and best results with tiny babies like yours. Good luck & let us know how she is doing!

Originally Posted by amyazer (Post 4346157)

just saw the post about the articles for the inverted vulva...having the surgery after the first heat cycle will correct it or just having the first heat cycle?

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4346172)

I would suggest seeing a specialist a reproduction specialist to ask this question of, as well she/he can examine your dog, and give a much better informed opinion.

How-ever it is my understanding that at times the inversion of the vagina/vulva can correct itself after the first heat cycle. Sometimes nature provides its' own cure:)

The specialist can also educate you on how to recognize the signs of heat, and what special care you need to take to insure no mating happens.

Originally Posted by IDPiper (Post 4346163)

I disagree. Don't spay her until she has her first heat to help correct the inverted vulva as the swelling of the vulva from the heat will help correct it. If she has her spayed before more than likely she is going to have a lifetime of UTIs and then possibly another vet bill to have a vulvoplasty to try and correct it. I don't understand why people say to spay right away as that does not repair the vulva so she will still have UTIs.

Originally Posted by amyazer (Post 4346250)

My dr told me that having the surgery would correct the inverted vulva...she has not had any infections as of yet maybe a very slight irritation because of hair there but i make sure i clean it now...i find it interesting that if you wait to the first heat cycle that it may correct itself...since she has no infections as of yet i dont see a problem waiting a few more months...my current dr wanted to wait till she was 8 months anyway(its not that far off but still she may get her first heat cycle soon) not sure tom ill be to do some research...and read these articles...

Originally Posted by IDPiper (Post 4346163)

I disagree. Don't spay her until she has her first heat to help correct the inverted vulva as the swelling of the vulva from the heat will help correct it. If she has her spayed before more than likely she is going to have a lifetime of UTIs and then possibly another vet bill to have a vulvoplasty to try and correct it. I don't understand why people say to spay right away as that does not repair the vulva so she will still have UTIs.

Originally Posted by Marhcarter (Post 4346451)

I have no knowledge of this condition, so I was just going on my human nursing experience that repeated infections of any kind always have the potential of going systemic & causing organ damage. It was a statement made without knowledge of the actual condition, just off the word "infections". (Heck, I couldn't even get the name of the condition correct! :rolleyes:)