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I think it will be great if Gemy can find you a trainer in your area. All the techniques that you can learn would take time - you AND him learning. Ya know? With a trainer, they can jump right in with their knowledge and get you both on track. I know you will do what's right for him in the end. Right now, that is you doing all you can do to see if it will work out. Good luck!! Keep us posted! And, good for you! :) |
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Hi all, I have booked a trainer for George and I from Bark Busters. We begin in a week and a half time. It is guaranteed to work..they are professionals and behaviourists that come right in the home. I will be updating and sharing the progress and what I learn for anyone interested. Should have him under control soon. Thanks for all the advice. I'll keep the progress posted. |
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I'm so thrilled to hear it. Hoping this works out beautifully and you and your little one can become a great team. I'm going to bold this because it is so important: Read the paragraph below when you hire a dog trainer: Be sure that trainer shows you how to read your dog's body language and when - timing is so important - is the time to step in and stop/correct/redirect and how to humanely discipline for the few times they do need that. But the trainer who works just with your dog and doesn't have you doing the work isn't doing you any favors. The money-only trainers come out and because they are good with dogs and are a stranger with lots of authority(most dogs obey people like that easier than their owner anyway), train them beautifully right in front of you, have the dogs doing all of the lessons and fulfilling the contract and have lived up to their guarantee. But in time, because they didn't teach YOU, and didn't improve YOUR dog skills, the dog reverts to old behaviors. Then, they need more $$$ to come out and "rehab" the dog. See how that can work? A trainer worth his certificate will train YOU how to train the dog and keep it trained its whole life. |
Agreed! I am nowhere near the "trainer" my trainer is. And their focus has been a lot upon me. I would suggest to stick with a single reward based system. In the beginning as a novice, I feel it is always best to not confuse yourself with too many different systems. One huge key is consistency and repetition. Lots and Lots of both. And training is a life long love affair with your dog. Truly it is so great to do always over their life. For example yesterday; I was slicing chicken - I use this for doggey treats, so the boys were beside me in the kitchen. A piece dropped to the floor, whizz Razzle had got to that piece before I could even get the Leave It command out of my mouth. Awh - I need to refresh my boys on the command. So for the next 30 minutes - I deliberately dropped pieces onto the floor. Only 3x was it necessary for me to say leave it! They were both rewarded for their obedience- immediately and quickly. Then I moved to dropping apiece and saying nothing. They left the goodie alone. Annother reward for both. Then I dropped a piece walked out of the room - and voila chicken piece still on the floor. This is refreshment of a skill they already learnt years ago, but "forgot" as we have not worked on it recently. While this is slightly off topic, I like to train my dogs to take "nothing" that is dropped on the floor in kitchen or dining room. It takes a couple of years truly for this to be so ingrained in them. Kitchens are dangerous places, bones can inadvertently get dropped and other things not good for dogs. |
No kidding, gemy. The training is ongoing and one can readily see in interactions with our dogs when that is needed. I do the "leave it" refresher about 3 times a year but that is one thing he does very easily - leaves/drops things and backs off. He KNOWS in his KNOWER that this just delights me and he's going to get very good treats and one happy mommie so he easily does it - never really forgets - so far. Also he's really good at staying and remaining in place. Those two come easy for him. But front door excitement via doorbell/knocking is one thing we work on about once a month. He's a natural greeter and does so want to amp up and get all excited to greet in a furor. Have to keep reinforcing not to do that. |
Yeah they come in the home and teach the owner what to do and don't use treat training methods. Heres some stuff from the website.. Should be great progress..I'm pretty excited... Lesson day: The first session typically takes 2.5 to 3 hours and consists of the following: Situation Assessment: We conduct a detailed interview with you to best assess the problem. We assess your dog’s temperament and the environment. Then we develop the plan of action that will best suit your dog. Explanation of the Bark Busters technique: We want you to understand the theory behind our techniques so you are fully involved in the solution implementation. Implement training techniques: Once we determine the best course of action, we coach you on the techniques so your dog begins to see you as the leader and builds trust in you. We want to make sure you are executing the program correctly before we leave. Homework: We will leave you with a written plan to follow so your dog can continue to build on the results achieved in the first session. As many follow up visits as are required. Every case is different, so it is difficult to say how many follow up visits will be required. Some clients are delighted to see the problems fixed after only the first session; some need many more. Either way, our one time flat fee covers as many follow ups as are required. There is one condition on this: that you follow the program as outlined in the homework we leave you. Post Lesson assessment. We conduct one more assessment by email. We feel it is important to measure progress quantitatively. Written Lifetime Guarantee We believe wholeheartedly in our methods which is why we back them up with a Written Lifetime Guarantee. As long as you are following the prescribed plan, our behaviour therapists will return free of charge at any point in your dog’s life if problems reoccur or even if a new one emerges. We give you the peace of mind that the problem will be fixed quickly, and will stay fixed. |
This sounds wonderful. Non-treat-based training usually requires excellent dog handling skills, goes a bit slower, takes more work and a dog that works for praise or another reward. Nervous dogs sometimes don't do as well with it. Some dogs don't work that well with praise so I have no problem at all with using a portion of the dog's daily ration of food for use in treat-based training. It works faster for me. But there are dogs who won't take treats or could care less so you find what it is they work for and use that as a reward. Some large working dogs will do anything you say in a training session if they know you will bounce their tennis ball in their direction at the end. Tibbe will often just stand there and look at the ball. Others want a tugowar session - no treats - just knowing they get that session after training. Others work hard to get that "Good boy" or the "yesss" or a click on the clicker - in fact, he jumps away from the clicker. Tibbe doesn't really care so much for "Good boy" or praise - could care less and it takes more skill to keep him interested - more enthusiasm and repetitions and I have to realize I'm competing with the surroundings to make me and the trick more interesting to him. I have certain little tricks I use to get and keep his attention but it is more work for me(ugh!). But throw in a crisp piece of kibble and he's quick to respond. So treat-based training is fine if you use a portion of their daily food allowance and they work faster and happier that way. Whatever works to get and keep your dog interested in you and doing what you are trying to get it to do and both of you stay happy in the process is the best method to use. I love a genuine "lifetime guarantee" and hope they stay in business as long as you might need them. Be sure what the term "lifetime" refers to in the contract. That term definition should be specifically described in the contract and further clarified in writing that no additional monies are required for their return training lessons in the home at any time in the future. |
I'm doing more research on the system and might cancel and try a different trainer... this is a franchise so anybody could take the training class then work for the company..I don't know what to expect its expensive too at 795$ - lots of mixed reviews.. these people might not be all that experienced training.. :confused: "lifetime" guarantee is definitely a marketing ploy.. |
I disagree with their collars and chain throwing, etc, and all that "baaa" stuff isn't that different for the $$$. That franchise is expensive and often trainers don't know that much, don't respond or return calls, and other are fine - if you use their collar and so forth. But don't let ANY trainer talk you into training with a collar on a Yorkie. Not necessary. They are no better than any other big business dog training and have some bad PR, just like all of them. I don't know if they still use it but growling at your own dog to train it just isn't necessary! |
I've not heard back from my two trainers yet, to see if they know of a good one in Ottawa. In terms of pricing; for my working dog trainer I paid $500 per year with no limit on the amount of times we could come. I usually went 3x per wk when he was a puppy, and once for the Sunday play date. My competitive obedience trainer I work with privately at $40 per hour. Sometimes it is only once per week, sometimes 2x, she is pretty flexible. But we do have a long term relationship. |
Why don't you see if you can join an obedience club in your area. They are a great resource if you have anything like that. Often some real dog handlers with excellent skills in them. |
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My barky puppy at the time weighed less than 3 lbs and I was taught to hurl a chain-filled bean bag so it would land near him and mimic mama dog's snap. I was terrified I'd bean him so they kept telling me to throw it closer. No. Too risky for a teensy dog. Then they suggested that I enclose my puppy in a small room, hand each of 3 friends a chain-filled bean bag and when he barked, we all were to hurl the bag toward him. No. At that point I knew this was a screwy method. Also the "bahhh" growl they teach you to do is stupid. If I can't train my dog using human commands...I am NOT a dog, I'm a human. Since then I've found that positive reinforcement and treat based training, sometimes with clickers, has worked well. Also I can give Ri a look and he KNOWS to stop. The funny thing is that when I searched web pre-yelp for BB reviews I couldn't find anything--they seemed to do a good job of SEO back then, and probably because there are many like me who did not see the efficacy of this method. Now, you see more negatives, even from vet offices. Steer clear of this one. There are plenty of better, more effective training programs that cost way less. |
I wasn't going to say anything about them if you'd already bought them but when you posted you were having second thoughts, I thought I'd say what I thought! I don't think just any dog training is better than none but these kind of aversives use to train a dog isn't necessary and badly scares a nervous dog. Just basic old sit, lie down, stay, stop, turn around, rollover and positive rewards-based training is all that it takes to start an unruly dog down the road to redemption. Just training them over and over in those simple things gets them used to listen to and obeying your requests. And the dogs will be begging for training all of the time. They will start to "throw behaviors" or do their tricks when not asked to in order to tell you it is time to train. Tibbe will come and just rollover or sit up and beg out of the blue - and then stop and stand starring at me - begging me for a training session. It is his most favorite thing in the world - well, that and barking at cats and squirrels! In time, you start to stand up, walk over to them and back them off bad behaviors with your body attitude, no-nonsense eye contact, pointing at them as you walk toward them and stopping the behavior then and there. You then stay over them until they turn away and show no sign of trying the behavior again and you keep looking over at them to reinforce that for a good while. When one of my dogs in training does back off a bad behavior, calm down and shows no sign of repeating a bad behavior, I will often - but not always - get up and give it a treat or toss one from my treat pouch which is usually near. Over time even the wildest dog will start to listen to someone who works faithfully with them in basic obedience and backs them off bad behavior and keeps a stern watch. To further keep good behavior going, once a dog has back off a bad behavior, I will get his toy basket out accompanied by great enthusiasm and talking high in a squeaky voice or give him something to chew on - something to play with, toss him a ball over and over and over. Play with or walk him. All of that to kind of get his thoughts away from and as a further reward to backing off what he was doing wrong. It's simple but it works. Plain old teaching a dog to do simple tricks and rewarding them doing those basic tricks over and over will in time cause that same dog to pay lots more attention to other things you indicate for it to do or not to do. Simple but nobody wants to stick with it for too long or get up and stop a bad behavior in the middle of a good movie or while washing clothes, sweeping the floor, etc. But those are the times you do have to stop what you are doing and back them off, stand them down. In time - a simple "no" from the other room will work! A good trainer will come out and show you all of this with you doing it and give you a schedule to work on, etc., then come back out in two weeks and see your program. Some will let you Skype your activities on your TV in the meantime and will stop anything you are doing wrong then. In the meantime, joining an obedience club somewhere in your area can find you a good trainer if you can't find one otherwise. Watching videos of how to do simple obedience training on YouTube will help, too. Watch those that are positive-reward based and don't involve aversives training. |
I don't know.. he seems spiteful.. I was practising him to wait to eat..(first time I ever did that) I was saying no sit and made him wait about 2-3min before going to the bowl he then peed right beside the bowl after. :( :eek: The bark busters seems to focus on dominance but saying bah and throwing bags of at the dog saying bah seems weird.. |
Oh my goodness, hon, that is not a good idea to make a dog just starting rehab from the type of behavior you described in your first post to wait 2 long minutes beside his food bowl for the poor thing's meal. Let me take some time to explain - it's long but hopefully will help you see why that wasn't a good idea to do now. During what you did, making him wait that long, his senses had to be flooded with the smell and proximity of his food and he, with very little in the way of impulse control from your original description, was not permitted by his person/leader to eat yet and then for two long minutes' wait! Dogs' senses of smell are highly advanced and to be so near his food, that scent flooding his nostrils, had to be thrilling and so enticing. His eyes, so near, could see his food right there. He's not very well trained, he's impulsive and has had little in the way of boundaries and yet, here he is sitting by his food and smelling and seeing it, all his body flooded with desire for his food and action - and he is prevented from eating for two long minutes! Only dogs in an advanced state of obedience training should be asked to go against their natural desire to feed themselves for that long, and that needs to be worked up to over weeks and weeks of training, once a good basic obedience course has been aced by the dog. At first, as part of the Nothing In Life Is Free program, a dog is asked to sit or lie down and wait for his food, but he should just be asked to wait seconds, 5 or 10 to start. But two minutes wait? You don't try this type of thing without getting a dog who realizes that you are not a trustworthy person right now. For a little guy who is still acting out because he hasn't had good leadership and little in the way of consistent or reasonable boundaries, you will need to work way up on the basics before you ask your dog to wait that long just to get his meal. No wonder the little guy is acting up if you are expecting this type of thing from him, to be honest. (Don't feel bad - we've all been there! :)) I realize that you are just new at this but things like that can cause a dog to feel extremely frustrated and his nerves were likely frayed to the point of breaking at the end when he finally got to eat. He was probably full of thoughts of confusion as he tried to process what just happened and ate his meal. No doubt he peed there at the scene out of sheer frustration. Dogs frequently scent-mark out of absolute frustration and tension they just can't control - kind of like when we break into tears or throw something when standing near where something upsetting or extremely unfair happened to us. They can't throw things or cry - they can only pee or bite or do something we don't like. He wasn't being spiteful - he was trying not to break! He needed a release and all he could do was scent-mark the place where he had such a bad time. It was a simple release of nerves - that's all. Sorry that was long but I want you to try to see it from the dog's point of view. Once you can see things like a dog, you can train one much easier and faster and with loving compassion, keep it rewarding and fun. Dogs will work their little butts off for someone who trains like that and seems to "get" them - really thinks like they do. I would just start with good, basic obedience and work patiently with your dog to grow as a trusted packleader in his mind, being enthusiastic and rewarding his doing his tricks with praise and treats. Once he is very good at the basics, keep adding things for him to learn to forge a tighter working relationship and bond - forming a team. Intersperse that training with interfering with bad behavior and stopping it in the way I described in an earlier post, by standing up walking over maintaining eye contact, pointing and backing him off the bad behavior and then waiting there until he turns away. You then monitor him with continued and obvious eye contact and a sentient body attitude until he has turned his interest to something else or you have suggested another activity or to to to his bed, etc. In addition to that basic training with very short but frequent walks using the loose lead method and good play sessions, followed by some time outside to pee/potty. In time, after a good long while of training and your dog is behaving much better, you can then advance to teaching waiting periods of time to test his ability to control his impulses in down/stays or sit/stays as you walk away from him, leave the room, etc., but to go to quickly from the behavior you described in your first post only days ago, with so little basis in good, positive-reward training and a long period of trust and leadership by you having been long established in his mind, to today, making him wait a long, long time beside his food bowl to eat, is pretty stressful for a dog - any dog, let alone the one you described in that original post. I would not try that again for quite some time. In the Nothing In Life Is Training method, dogs are required to sit and wait before getting their food but that is something you work up to after a good basis in training has been established and the dog knows he can trust you. Once trust has been long established, a dog will happily wait for things as he knows what you are asking of him, even if it seems hard, is a part of the training he has come to love and, besides that, he's in excellent control of his impulses by then and you have gradually worked up to waiting from mere seconds at first to up to a minute gradually. When a dog trusts you, he knows you will never require too much of him too soon and that the reward for doing what you ask is going to be big - really special. So he will in time even wait up to 2 minutes to get his food without frustration and tension because a longtime basic of training and trust and teamwork has been forged over time. Even then, a two minute wait for a meal seems as if it could be stressful for anything but a very advanced obedience-trained dog and there are much more effective ways to use your time than that kind of thing. I would urge you to keep looking strenuously for a good trainer to come out and work with you and teaching you how to understand your dog and train him humanely, making it fun and interesting for him. It sounds as if your expectations are unrealistic and tells me you are not very dog savvy but in time, with enough study and a good trainer to work with you, you will get there. You will! We all make mistakes with our dogs and the thing to do is let those times be a spur to start to buy or check-out dog-training and dog-psychology books from the library and read, read, read - studying all that you can about how dogs think, learn and process things that happen in their lives. It is far wiser to spend the next weeks studying about dogs and finding a good trainer to teach/mentor you through basic obedience training and loose leash walking than anything else, even if your dog keeps acting up in the process. Because that way, you won't be harming your dog's trust in you or stressing him unnecessarily by unreasonable things and will be filling your brain with knowledge about dogs. In time, you will begin to understand the how and why of them and what works for them best and what doesn't and when you do train him, it will be productive. Every day read and study and keep doing just plain old basic obedience with lots of praise and rewards using some treats that motivate the dog until you can find yourself some help. In a year's time, you can be a very knowledgeable person with fine dog skills if you will spend time learning how before you try. Don't stress over this, realize everyone makes mistakes - learn from it and go forward from this point. In a year, you won't know your dog, he will be so well-behaved! :) |
So I researched Bark Busters for hours last night.. terrifying. The scare tactics are terrible... I cancelled it. George and I are set up to start basic obedience training for an hour once a week after this Saturday when we meet the trainer here.. she teaches with positive reinforcement. He sits a lot the past few days.. he is sitting right now.. I didn't know you don't do that with the food. I just thought I would see if he would listen..oopps. I got a book Unleashed on sale and will look for more suggestions from this site. I guess with this little guy I won't be able to ever put him on my furniture, lap, or bed????? The trainer also said I would have to get a crate during the 8 week training process for potty and what not. :shocked7q |
Don't worry about it - you didn't know not to stress him like that right now. Once he's into training and you two have a working team together, you can have him wait/stay in place and things like that to increase the amount of time he's able to stay in place on command, starting with a short time and working up. And yes, once you learn some dog handling skills and how to assume authority, gain respect in your dog's eyes, in time you can allow him to do anything since he will be well-behaved and even doing those things he will know that sleeping with you, lap time and things like that are not an invitation to run the pack - just merely something he's allowed to do. It's just for now while he's in training and rehab from a life of much misbehavior that you aren't allowing these things. Once he's totally under your control and happy to do what you say, he can be allowed to do anything you like. Your trainer and your study will show you the signs to watch out for that might indicate he could be slipping into dominance or aggressive misbehavior again. If you make mistakes along the way, you can correct those with many good times and trusting situations to come. He'll forgive and move on. Dogs live for today and don't hold grudges but you can lose their trust so go by the instructions for how to train in basic obedience and how long to do it and don't exceed any of those things right now. I so hope that your trainer works out and is a good one - will teach you what you need to know about how to train your dog without water bombs, squirting him or dumping water on him, throwing chains or shaking cans, buying special collars for correction and growling at him and things. Those things can work for some dogs and some dogs they frighten and intimidate so basically I don't care for them since there are other ways using body attitude, your hands, eyes, tone of voice, etc. You just basically need your two hands, a harness and a short leash and you and your dog. Be sure to make training fun for your dog and keep your tone matter-of-fact and stay unemotional when he misses it or forgets, messes up and he will - that is part of training! He'll learn in time. Good luck and keep us updated. |
I don't have a Yorkie yet, or any advice for the OP, I just wanted to say that Jeanie's posts are amazing. They're really helping me understand things for future reference! OP, kudos on trying to sort things out now, it must be so overwhelming, but the fact you're here and trying is impressive. |
Jeanie I have to say, you take such great care and do such a fine job of explaining things to beginners. To the OP if you need me to continue to explore Ottawa trainers let me know. And Jeannie is so very right - 2minutes is way too long in the beginning to allow a baby dog in terms of obedience to wait for dinner! With my older dogs - Only every once in a while do I make them wait for 2minutes. This is usually as I am building up to another competition. I do not use removing their dinner or breakfast as a "punishment" for misbehaviour. Some trainers will - and I am not saying it is wrong per say. It is just a bedrock of belief in my make - up. I will never starve my dogs - even if for only a day to get them to behave. I do other behaviour modification techniques. And yes I do use removal from my presence as one of the ultimate punishments! It works very very well. But that is because we have years of history, with working together, with training together; we truly are each other best friends. They know when they dont get to go into the backyard with me - when I discipline them with my voice and walk out the door without them - they have mis-behaved. |
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