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Yet another link |
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There is an obvious uptick of interest in the vet community on this important subject; as there very well should be. I posted earlier that there is on-going right now a 10,000 GR study; the results of which are going to be eagerly read. The toy breeds are another kettle of fish so to speak; again in my opinion. |
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well its like everything in life what can do someone good can be bad for others. my cousins friend had her tubes tied and she got many side effects, like anxiety,depression, facial hair and rashes throught her body. all those effects along with 45lbs of weight gain in 4 weeks happened tome with the mirena. when i removed it and got my tubes tied everything went away im normal again but im no longer 120lbs im 165. :(i got the mirena because my same cousin had it and she lost weight. everyone is different. i agree with what you say, its not always just good theres always a bad to something. |
Do not do it too early or too late. I had my intact male for 10 years and on the advice of my vet had him fixed, only to get a phone call telling me he died from the surgery. If you are going to do this do it at a young age but not too young. This is a surgery that is done every day of the week but it is still surgery and don't think that you are not risking the life of you dog just so you will not have to be on top of them and keep them safe when they are in heat. Some times the Vet is just trying to get into you pocket!$$$. I do not fix my females until the third heat and I will never do a male after 4 years. I learned my lesson the hard way and believe me it is still hard to this day! |
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This can be a very interesting discussion amongst we dog owners. End of life decisions don't just start with age related problems. I think the discussion can be enriched through breed specific knowledge. Keeping current on recent research et al. It is a topic that has been on my mind for some time. I am a large dog breeder and the average life expectancy for my breed is approx. 10 yrs, or if you'd like a range 8-12 years. I just had this discussion of neutering my male last month, he was approx. 7.5 yrs old. I asked the vet why? Well he said maybe testicular cancer, or prostate cancer. I said both are relatively easily caught early. I asked did you know the average life expectancy is 8-12yrs for this breed? He said no I did not. My boy also has another complicating factor as he has lived with DLSS since he was 3yrs old. The surgery is very expensive for this, and as his condition was mild then, no surgery was advised at that time, but now it has progressed somewhat with arthritic changes into his L/S area. What we did decide to do, was do dental cleaning, at which time he had a full prostate examination while under sedation, and some other minor things done - like removal of sebaceous cysts which on examination were sebaceous cysts. His prostate is very slightly enlarged at this point in time nothing to worry about at all. There are quality of life issues to consider. We as pet owners know our dogs the best. For Magic he lives to work, to play, to be active. The crate rest which was more than eight weeks when he was initially diagnosed with DLSS was very very hard on him. As well as the muscular atrophy was debilitating to him. And that is a very real issue with a heavy large breed. This means the owner might have to assist the dog from lifting up from a prone position, helping the dog with urination and defecation, tasks that require no little bit of strength with a dog of 120 lbs or so. We as the human partners, and guardians of our dogs, can only do the best we can do, by making fully informed decisions for our pets. We are the ones responsible, to weigh all of the facts, and those ineffable things beyond the facts, that only we can measure and decide upon. |
Paladin had no health issues at the time of his surgery. The vet recommended he be fix because we had an intact female that we had adopted but could not be fix yet due to some health issues with her. She said it would be very hard on him to be around an intact female when she did go into season. I have no way of knowing if this would have been hard for him or not as he didn’t survive. What I have learned it that he should at his advanced age Not have been fixed as the risk of the Anastasia was greater than the benefit of fixing him. The only thing she did was line her pocket and nothing more. |
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I can answer some of the question of would it have been hard on him at 10 yrs old to live in a home with a female in season? Part of the answer would be more informed if you or I knew the reason he did not survive the operation. Was pre op blood work done for instance? To help ascertain if his organs were healthy enough for anaesthesia? Were his lungs and heart in good condition? But given good lungs and heart. When a female that lives in your home goes into heat, full males and for that matter neutered males, will and can not help but to smell the scent. Their interest in the female starts to become heightened. The worse period of time is when the female goes into something that is called standing heat which lasts for 4 maybe 5 days. Then the males whine and cry, and try their darnest to get to the female for mating. Now how hard would this be on a 10yrs old male, who has never before lived with an intact female, is and pardon the pun, hard to say. The arousal will increase heart rate and respiration, but with healthy heart and lungs, not such a health risk. What is hard though is keeping the two separated for the whole duration of the heat. This means separate exercise times, and what is called crate and rotate. |
another article. |
Thank you Gemy, I just wanted to thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention - that there are other schools of thought on this matter. Here's another recent article: Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs The first step is you hope that one always makes an informed decision. |
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Your welcome. I am trying to keep this thread current as and when I find more recent research and or articles. I welcome if you do the same! |
I won't push spay or neuter, as often some dogs health dictates it's best to leave intact. But should you decide to and are able to, my views on this are leave it as long as you can to allow them to grown and develop properly and fully, and all their baby adult teeth have surfaced. Keeping in mind you need to be fully responsible at all times regarding their whereabouts and activities. |
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I had a discussion with a vet several years ago regarding this. Her father had four intact male dogs he refused to fix that were 6 and up. She was saying several times she had suggested fixing and he said why. She explained to me that there truly was no valid reason other than ensuring they didn't accidentally impregnate a female (which never happened as he apparently was a completely responsible dog owner). Also she explained that there is actually no medical research showing that males can get cancers from not being fixed. I had a cocker spaniel for 13 years and I never fixed him, the poor fella died a virgin of colitis (he used to rip into my mum's garbage and eat everything from plastic to tin foil, so now I know more, I'm not surprised) |
That's a great article, I think I posted it on here and got not one comment |
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Vizsla Study is Published! Spay and Neuter A retrospective cohort study published in Feb 1 2014 of Journal of the American Veterinary Association. The link provided is an article by Dr Becker, who with-in the article provides the link to the actual study. In line with the GR and Rottweiler studies, more confirmation of the health risks to spayed/neutered animals. I leave it to the readers to look up the study. Will Spaying/Neutering Increase Your Dog's Risk of Cancer? |
The association between gonadectomy and various neoplasms in dogs has been examined in several studies.15–20 Mammary gland cancer is an important condition in female dogs, with approximately 20% to 50% of the tumors being histologically malignant.33,34 It is commonly believed that gonadectomized female dogs have a reduced risk of mammary gland cancer and that the earlier a dog is gonadectomized, the lower the risk.28,29,34,35 However, authors of a recent systematic review36 of all reports in peer-reviewed journals on the associations among neutering, age at neutering, and mammary gland tumors concluded that the evidence that neutering reduces the risk of mammary gland neoplasia is weak and not a sound basis for firm recommendations on neutering because of limited evidence and bias in published results. The present study included 1,360 female dogs, 535 of which were sexually intact. Only 11 dogs had mammary gland neoplasia; all but one of these were spayed at > 5 years of age. Given that mammary gland cancer is seen more commonly in female dogs and 54.3% of the dogs in the survey were female, this would still have been equivalent to only 20 dogs in the study having mammary gland cancer, had the cancer affected both sexes equally. In comparison, 267 dogs in the study had diagnoses of mast cell cancer (n = 148), hemangiosarcoma (73), or lymphoma or lymphosarcoma (46). There is a breed predilection for development of mammary gland neoplasia,37 and analysis of results of the present study suggested that mammary gland cancer is not a major concern in Vizslas, regardless of gonadectomy status. The association between gonadectomy and various neoplasms in dogs has been examined in several studies.15–20 Mammary gland cancer is an important condition in female dogs, with approximately 20% to 50% of the tumors being histologically malignant.33,34 It is commonly believed that gonadectomized female dogs have a reduced risk of mammary gland cancer and that the earlier a dog is gonadectomized, the lower the risk.28,29,34,35 However, authors of a recent systematic review36 of all reports in peer-reviewed journals on the associations among neutering, age at neutering, and mammary gland tumors concluded that the evidence that neutering reduces the risk of mammary gland neoplasia is weak and not a sound basis for firm recommendations on neutering because of limited evidence and bias in published results. The present study included 1,360 female dogs, 535 of which were sexually intact. Only 11 dogs had mammary gland neoplasia; all but one of these were spayed at > 5 years of age. Given that mammary gland cancer is seen more commonly in female dogs and 54.3% of the dogs in the survey were female, this would still have been equivalent to only 20 dogs in the study having mammary gland cancer, had the cancer affected both sexes equally. In comparison, 267 dogs in the study had diagnoses of mast cell cancer (n = 148), hemangiosarcoma (73), or lymphoma or lymphosarcoma (46). There is a breed predilection for development of mammary gland neoplasia,37 and analysis of results of the present study suggested that mammary gland cancer is not a major concern in Vizslas, regardless of gonadectomy status. http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Hea...izslaStudy.pdf From the Viszla study. |
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To add to the conversation, here is an excellent article on when (if ever) to spay or neuter, including considerations of diseases that are reduced by spaying, as well as those that are increased by spaying, their incidence, and how to perform a cost/benefit analysis: Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats It's probably behind a pay firewall for most people... Edit: Free copy here!!!: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rootk001/gonadectomy.pdf |
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I try to post updates on my thread When to Spay and Neuter if Ever, well at least for that topic. I just wish we had some toy dog studies. Extrapolating from medium to large breeds, is tempting, but at this point in my mind has no merit. Heck I can't even find studies on Cancer in Toys. And let us not forget there are breed predilections for many genetic diseases. Awh well. |
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As an example, consider a discussion between a veterinarian and the owner of an 8-week-old female Labrador Retriever that is not intended for breeding. This dog would benefit greatly from OHE before her first estrus as a means of preventing mammary gland tumors, which are extremely common and cause substantial morbidity (Table 3). Because of her breed, detriments of OHE include an increased predisposition to CCL injury, hemangiosarcoma, and obesity. However, there is a low incidence of hemangiosarcoma, and obesity can be readily controlled with good husbandry, which leaves CCL injury as the most important possible detriment. Because the incidence of CCL rupture is lower than that of mammary gland neoplasia, a veterinarian may choose to recommend OHE and educate the owner about maintenance of optimal body condition and other management techniques that will minimize potential for CCL injury. An OHE should be performed before the dog’s first estrus. To minimize the potential for development of urinary incontinence, the veterinarian may choose to wait to perform the OHE until after the dog has reached 3 months of age So the devils advocate part. As a medium to large breed, depending upon where you put the ruler, this breed is at least in the top 10 breeds for CHD. Their long bones certainly will not close at 6mths old!! And there have been studies that show increased incidence of CCL as well as CHD. And for a working dog which is what a LAB is you effectively put them out of work with a CCL rupture!. Not to mention the cost of the operation, and the lifetime restriction of activities. And I wonder is this what they mean when they "recommend" the vet instruct on how to minimize a potential CCL tear. To not do what they were bred to do? That is to retrieve water fowl from the water. To run through bush. To actively perform many tasks, including by the way being sturdy and healthy enough to be a service dog? Second Mammary Cancer can be caught early and successfully operated upon. The vet community is responsible for educating owners on how to responsibly care for an intact bitch. That includes at least monthly examination of the nipples. Now the cost of preventative care for Mammary CAncer is a heck of a lot less than a CCL operation and the lameness/stiffness and the inability to do the work they were bred to do! Obesity for sure has been shown to be a part of neutering in many studies. It is much harder to keep an injured dog fit, (such as one that has a CCL tear), than a healthy able to be active dog. It is not just a matter of food and exercise, although important I am sure I have seen at least one study that excludes food/exercise and yet still obesity is there. And of course there are the anecdoctal stories. And my observations of "active" neutered/spayed Labs playing in the water with mine. Almost to a one they are too heavy. Yet I see them 2-3 times a week with mine, going swimming. And boy those Labs love to swim!!!! And owners talk to each other at the lake. So in closing, I would have more than a few challenges on these recommendations if I were an owner of a Lab. ;) |
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Anecdotally the community of breeders do know that Hip problems are on the rise. More so FHO than HD. You can see it here on our Sick and Emergency forum. I have no research to back me up for toy breeds. What I do have is common sense and research on other breeds. I don't like to extrapolate to Yorkies but you asked. There is no reason "health wise" to neuter a male Yorkie. There just might be ease of ownership issues, but no true overweening health benefits. Again with the dirth of cancer literature on Yorkies, I have no idea if neutering increases their risk of certain types of cancer. I would side with a matured Yorkie being neutered. I am also onside with a responsible owner not neutering a male Yorkie. For the female Yorkie for a pet owner, definitely spay. There is again NO RESEARCH that can mitigate my response. Also practically most pet owners have no idea when heat happens most especially in a toy breed. And the risks of that boggle my mind. Again I suggest going through at least one heat, and spay around 1yr old. If she has not gone into heat at one, fine and good spay now! Here-in the risks of pyrometra are from many large breed studies increased, and that can be a deadly situation. I am interested in research that asks the question; is LP more prevalent in de-sexed Yorkies versus intact? what about LS what about FHO or CHD? And again what is the incidence of pyrometra in spayed versus unsprayed females? |
I don't care about any research that claims that unaltered animals are healthier. The fact that 2.7 million healthy, adoptable cats and dogs—about one every 11 seconds—are put down in U.S. shelters each year. That alone ends any debate for me regarding not altering ALL pets. Often these animals are the offspring of cherished family pets. Spay/neuter is a proven way to reduce pet overpopulation, ensuring that every pet has a family to love them. People are just not responsible when it comes to pet ownership and doing basic preventative care such as vaccines, monthly heartworm preventions and a yearly visit to the vet. What makes anyone think that keeping unaltered animals is a wise decision is beyond me. I would much rather see an altered pet be loved and have a possibility of some type of health issue down the road than a shelter full of cast off unwanted animals awaiting their death sentence. Sure if you are a responsible breeder and take your responsibility seriously then I don't see a problem with not altering. But we all know "breeders" that have oops matings. People that come to YT for medical advice instead of vetting properly or looking for reason not to alter their animals will take this information and run with it for their own justification. I firmly believe that all pets should be alter and not contribute to the overpopulation of animals in this country. |
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The answer is always making an "informed decision", and I will always advocate for the health of dogs. Period non stop. If certain folks want to "take| this information and run with it, well so be it! I will never advocate irresponsibly a position that puts at risk the health of a dog. This is what this forum is for. Education. Offering different points of view. I abhor breedings that don't even come close to meeting the breed standard. I abhor folks who mindlessly adopt a puppy, only to somehow not understand that this is a puppy, and then 2 months later they surrender it. The answer in my mind is not to "suppress" information, to "suppress" studies on the health risks or benefits; but to educate. To educate in all facets of responsible dog ownership. And that includes when to spay or neuter. It includes how to train a good citizen dog. We should not hide our heads in the sand. Despite the heart breaking stats on shelter dogs. Health of the dog is foremost in my mind. |
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Another thing that bothers me is how about the health of the female who is pregnant and going to have puppies because they thought there dog would be healthier not spayed? What if that dog is 3 pounds? Does that matter? Does dogs reproducing that have horrible genetic illnesses and are very unhealthy and have pups who have them and suffer until they die which could be years and years in pain? Do these dogs health not matter? What about the irresponsible owners who see this and use this as reason not to spay there dog and it keeps getting pregnant? Sure didn't help advocate for that dog just live and happy life as a pet. Being pregnant and whelping is not fun its not comfortable and putting a dog through that for no reason is messed up and wrong. My research shows getting your dogs altered is healthier then not. No I didn't think it should be done before 6 months but I still think it should be done before females first heat. The biggest thing that needs to be in bold is these studies are on big dogs and small dogs are VERY different then big dogs so much so I think it voids most of the studies. I care about dog is shelters and the million put to sleep every year but my dogs health comes first and I feel altering my dog gives them the best chance at the healthiest and happiest life. |
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Gemy, don't take this wrong but as much as you advocate for this topic we all know how you had a Heartworm positive dog. The story is very sad but in the end it was owner failure by not properly giving the preventative. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/our...s-prayers.html Which brings me to the point of why EVERY pet owner should spay and neuter. When it becomes a matter of life and death it is then too late. Like I said in my first post, owners are not always responsible and the story of Zoey (I consider you very responsible) is just case in point. |
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