I apologize but i didn't want to come across rudely either :) I was just saying if she is only selling or giving them away as pets it shouldn't matter and even the standards might change in US like they have in Europe. Once again, my apologies.

No I didnt take it you were being rude. The standards may change eventually I dont think it will be any time soon though. It is up to the YTCA to change the standard. I would think it would be great if they changed the docking standard though

I didn't take your comments as rude either. No worries.
But things that make you go hmmmmm.....
If it is illegal in England to dock the tails of Yorkshire Terriers, the country the breed originated from, wouldn't you think that the standard would change?
In saying that, if the breed standard in the States did change, how would one feel as a breeder about said change and how would this impact the show circuit with all the present champions out there having docked tails.

I'm sure the one's with docked tails could be grandfathered in. But...who knows

Im glad you didnt think I was rude I am just a direct type of person. It would have a major impact thats why change comes slow. It would affect everybody who shows now.

Yep they would have to do that for sure

Tail docking is done to prevent tail injury.
Having said that it was mainly done so when Yorkies were considered "working dogs" as well, and far more prone to injury. I

It is illegal throughout varies places in Europe.

There are many studies out there showing the benefits of tail docking in the aspect of injury prevention and emergency docking due to injury the current rate in Europe is 30% higher rates of tail injuries-obviously because far more dogs there have full tails.

Personally I like tail docking on breeds it is seen necessicary, as well ear cropping when medically necessicary: I would have a licensed experienced vet do it properly,to prevent injury and infections.

Although I personally think long tails are just beautiful.

I have experienced both dew claw (from getting a dog without them being removed) injury and also emergency removal.
Also tail injury BF's dog for whatever reason always got her tail hurt somehow. She was a crazy active dog though too.

haha i think in the end unless you are showing the dog it comes to personal preference. i think yorkies are a beautiful breed and are amazing with or without that tail ;)

I would LOVE a Yorkie with a full tail. I think the only ones who would "turn up their nose" at a full tail would be those that think they should strictly adhere to the YTCA standards....
IMO, absolutely nothing wrong with letting them keep their god-given tails!!!
I also don't buy into the injury prevention theory for docking tails. If that were the case, why don't they dock Bichons, Maltese, Shih Tzu , Lab.... etc? jmo

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I don't believe the risk to tail injury is any greater than any type of other injury a dog can get... broken leg, cut paw, hurt ear, scratched nose, the list goes on. So just because the dog has a chance to break his leg, we should just cut off the leg... to prevent it? How does that make sense? To me, it's the same logic with tail docking. Just a pointless procedure to suit the needs of a human when it comes to cosmetics... I'm not saying it's wrong to prefer one look or the other, but it just seems kind of silly to me.

I love that both of my girls have a full tail!! everytime they are happy, they wag those tails!! is soooo cute!! :)_i just love it!! Yorkie tails ROCK!!! IMO

From what I have read, Yorkies were bred for working down low chasing rats through every crevice, crack and hole in often very primitive living conditions. When a Yorkie is chasing prey, it stops at nothing. They would catch their tails on things, scratch them on wood splinters, exposed nails, cut them, other animals, including other dogs, and the rats themselves, would bite tails as they raced in and out, over and under whatever happened to be in the barn or outbuildings, farm yard, mine - you name it, and in the end-game fight. A Yorkie will squeeze into and put his body in the most precarious positions when he's scenting something or chasing.

Broken, ampulated tails, tails stomped by farm animals, lacerated and shredded tails were a problem as Yorkie's always were and are extremely prey-driven and won't stop for anything when on the trail of small prey. Many Yorkies also have fragile tails as opposed to the Lab, whose tail is much sturdier. Many other terriers have docked tails for the same reason. I have never met a Lab, Bichon or Shih Tzu who are as prey-driven as a Yorkie on the scent - maybe they are but I, for one, am glad Tibbe's dail is docked as he thinks he is still a working dog and would go through a shredder on impulse to get what he is after! He has no impulse control at all where real or perceived prey is concerned and is up and gone and into whatever B4 I can look up, let alone stop him.

If we did have mice or rats here, I hate to think what this dog would do to get to one and am pretty sure no broken tail would stop him! For that reason, even though most of us don't live in primitive conditions, there are still many perils for a racing, driven dog diving under rocker recliners or any low-to-the-ground yard furniture, fences, gates, bicycles lying on their sides, stored garden equipment, etc. I am glad Tibbe has a docked tail, little prick ears and no dew claws as he still chases things as if he were a working dog back in the mines or something.

:yeahthat:But again, full tails are beautiful...well I think "nubbins" are cute too.
I joke about Elvis being "prissy" and cat like with his grooming and naps etc being so mellow-we did kitchen renovations (nothing exciting pip busted and we had to fix the sub-flooring from the leak) well Elvis started going insane!

We had a mouse-3 actually-all the dogs actually were crazy here they are all terriers (ratters) but WOW Elvis went from the definition of a lap dog to an insane killing machine in 3 seconds flat, ripping at the cabinet doors flying under the sink through the pipe work like nothing I've ever seen him do before or since!

I think he even scared Monster our mini schnauzie she's has a docked tail too which is like a handle by breeding for the effect of it!

Jackson has caught two birds in our screened in porch, he runs full force most days of the week, he chases rabbits in my dads backyard, he chases bugs and mice and whatever else they find back there, he jumps on/off furniture, he does agility, he goes swimming, he plays in mud... does everything most terriers would do and his tail (or dewclaws for that matter) have never caused him issues or gotten in the way... I'm just saying, I don't think protection of the tail is a good enough excuse and wish people would just admit (well, lots do) that it's simply a preference of looks. I can guarantee none of our dogs are TRUE working dogs. If you would let your dog in a big room full of rats, then yes a docked tail would probably come in handy, but most Yorkies are not used as working dogs anymore and chasing a few mice here and there in a fenced back yard is completely different. In fact, Border Terriers are one of the few terriers left that actually still are bred to be working dogs and they have a tail!

Good point Brister, I'm maybe too paranoid about it then?

Again my dogs came with docked tails I never had to think about the decision, and more so am always more concerned with the risks, but it's really nice to hear from people who's dogs have full tails and are very active if they've experienced injury since that's supposed to be the reasoning.

Jackson has his declaws still too? Please be careful with them, does he wear shoes or do you use a wrap on them to protect them at all when he's being active?

Don't boarder terriers have an especially durable tail too?

I think the Border Terrier's tail IS bred to be thicker, like the Westies, so you can pull them out of a hole with it. But my point was mainly that they are often working small terriers and they still have a tail. Yorkies are not working terriers.

No, I've never done anything special with dewclaws. Just keep 'em cut short. I realize there's always a chance of them getting stuck on something but I did not get him from a reputable breeder and they were never removed. However, all of our dogs growing up always had dewclaws and they've never posed to be an issue. I just don't really think about it - I treat it like all his other nails. I had never heard of a dog having them removed until joining YT.

Yes, I think they are pretty, too. Is Elvis the one you said in another thread had a deer-butt! Sounds like your Elvis is a ratter at heart just as my Tibbe would be given the chance! I wonder how long and how far he would chase something he is after if he were just allowed to go after real prey until he caught it. I will tell you that the heart of an old-fashioned dog of the mines and farms of the British Isles beats in this little lap dog when he scents or sees something to chase. He is still a working terrier at heart.

LOL! The dear-butt! That's Scoobers, so funny he's a Schnorkie (Yorkie/ mini schnauzie hybrid) he's freakishly large though at 21 lbs! Scoobers is my 'runner' he'll follow recall...except...when he catches a scent in an unfenced area he has no control over it he's gone before his lil gears in his noggin' have time to respond! Yes, he has a butt that (I know most dogs have swirls there) looks exactly like a dear's I'd post a pic but ya know someone else might read over this and see it and I'll be the dear-butt pic poster from then on!

I know what you mean to Brister I used to think some dogs just had short tails naturally! I had no idea they were "docked"! Actually I used to think so many things before I came to YT and found out so many things...thankfully.

I know the mini schnauzie (my wording here tired again it's 6 am) had something to do with the first few tail vertebrae being stronger to be used as a handle to be pulled by tails from holes but that if you grab beyond that point you will break their tail like any other dog so maybe that's why they dock theirs even though it was 'handle like by breeding' along with injury prevention.

Oh, now I remember Scoobers and the deer-butt!!! That was so funny! Several other posters on that thread acknowledged deer-butts, too. I think Tibbe's little Yorkie behind is sooo cute, though he isn't a deer-butt himself. But his little butt is broad and well-muscled and just so cute! :) :) :)

On Yorkies, I like the looks of both full and docked tails. I'm happy with my boys' docked tails. They still have plenty to express themselves. Teddy is a wonderful wagger and butt wiggler. Max is very serious with his.

I do feel sorry for the pups that have their tails docked too short.

There are other breeds I prefer with a docked tail. Airedales are prettier in my opinion with a stubby tail.

I was right there when they docked two litters of my yorkies. They did the actual docking in the next room but the door was open & I wasn't more than 6 feet from them. I could have taken 2 steps & watched but preferred to stay with the litter as they took them one by one for docking. Some whimpered a little as I took them away from momma but they were no worse when they got their little tails snipped off. Not a one of them cried or continued to yip after they handed them back to me. Some made that little whiny noise that says, "where's momma?" They did root around immediately as I cuddled them to my neck, looking for something to suckle. We laughed about how they were more interested in finding momma than they were worried about losing their tails. One did look for all the world, like he was still sleeping when they handed him back to me. I can definately say he was IN NO DISTRESS WHATSOEVER! This IS what happened with mine and since it happened with two litters, I am pretty sure that is the norm for this vet.

You may well have had a different experience with the dockings you have seen. But that WAS my experience and I don't appreciate you trying to insinuate I lied! For what earthly purpose???? I get no commission on docking! Perhaps it has more to do with HOW the tails are docked? I do have a very gentle vet. He manages to give vaccines without making them yip or cry at all too! I always have ours done at 3 days and the vet tech told me that the smaller the dog, the easier the docking seems to go for them. If your vet is seeing that much pain with his dockings, maybe he needs to re-evaluate what he is doing or sharpen his scalpel or something.

Only a very closed and arrogant mind immediately denies someone's experience happened just because it is different from their own experience. BTW I never said the vet said it would be painless. I equated it to more like ear piercing. It might hurt them a bit for a few seconds, but it certainly did not appear they were in ANY pain as they handed them right back to me.

Just so you don't have to continue saying my experience did not happen, here is some medical references to show that puppies still have some cell divisions in their brains and some of the nervous threads are not fully developed a few days after birth. This contributes to how little pain they actually feel when tails are docked.
-- In 1941, Volkhov determined that animals, at this period of life, had very little feeling of pain. The conscious feeling of pain is still not very likely at that age.
--Schmidker wrote in his doctorate in 1951 about the feeling of pain in new-born puppies: "Incomplete development of the nervous system at the time of birth and the very high chronaxie value in connection with the fact that the animal is not able to react effectively to pain, gives us every reason to believe that the actual feeling of pain is very low in the new-born of this group of mammals (dogs). In other words, at this age and biological condition, it would have no absolute meaning to talk about pain".
--You therefore do not have to worry or fear that the dog will be made to suffer pain or psychological pain, if the tail has been docked or the dew claws removed, in the first few days after birth. "
Tail Docking - The Fritsch Report

I agree -- I like them both ways. I prefer my yorkie to look as the standard dictates but I can sure appreciate the beauty of a fully displayed tail. Someone just recently posted a video of their parti/Biewer (sorry not sure which) tail -- the video is all about the tail -- wagging, furled, unfurled, showing off like peacock plummage. You can't watch that video without admiring that tail! It is gorgeous!

I debated the first time about docking a litter's tails, but when I saw how little it affected them, I didn't hesitate the second time.

I won't buy a dog with a docked tail. I love fuzzy tails.

I don't get the prevent injury thing. I mean, I could break my finger, but it's still here :D

Ear piercing hmmm. I remember that well. No cutting through bone or cartilage though. But I chose to have my ears pierced. And no offence to the geniuses from 100 years ago. But how do you know they don feel pain. Hitler said his race was the greatest and the Jews were not worthy. Look who's still here and stronger than ever. So it's a choice and we all have the right to agree or disagree. Teegy is the love of my life with his little nubbins. If it's breed standard then the better breeders and those that show will continue the practice. It's now against the law
In Canada for vets to dock tails. I don't know where this stemmed from but it would be interesting to find out

sorry for the misunderstanding
 

woah woah woah:eek: First let me just say, I apologize if I offended you (in retrospect ,I should have chose my wording more thoughtfully), but I am not a close minded or arrogant person and I was not trying to "deny your experience" since I didn't even know you had one. I never said nor was I trying to imply that YOU lied, you never said in your original post that you were PRESENT for the tail docking of your puppies at all, you only described what your vet told you. I had NO CLUE you were there, all I meant by my comment about your vet "lieing" about the pup sleeping throught it or it not being painfull was that I know some vets (and MDs) downplay what pain is going to be like for a procedure, especially vets since 99% of the time the owner is not present and has no clue what is happening. The vets I worked for are the best in the area and the specific one I worked for where most of my experience lies is AAHA approved and is 100% UTD on the lastest medical procedures and equipment. I was by no means at all trying to call you a lier nor was I trying to come down on you for docking your pups tails or anything else negative towards you. The OP was asking for an honest opinion about whether or not to dock her pups tails and I was simply sharing my experience with her. The only reason I quoted you was because it SEEMED like your vet may have not been being 100% honest with you, but I do appoligize if I was wrong or insulted you in any way, I assure that was never my intention at all. Bottom line is, IMHO no matter how gentle the vet is, what they are doing is cutting off the tail. And like I said, NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST ANYONE WHO DOCKS TAILS - I agree with you that the puppies do forget all about it a few seconds later (as I believe I stated in my post) and you're also right that all they want to do is look for "mommy" at that point and they are fine afterwards. The fact of the matter is, it does cause pain (even though only a few seconds of it) to the dog and my experiences (many) prove that to me. I'm not saying it's cruel or tramatizing in the long run, I just personaly think it's unnessesary and it was my absolute least favorite thing to assist the veterinarian with because I felt bad for the puppies for that few seconds. The OP was having douts about doing it and the ONLY thing I was trying to do was provide her with some knowledge. Sorry again if I offended you, I wasn't trying to and I do apologize.

Maybe this will help you make up your mind. Nuff said

:mad::mad:Omgosh I couldnt even watch that video!!!

I cried. Don't tell me that little one didn't feel pain.
I admit that I love the look of a yorkie with a docked tail and had Adie's tail docked. When Skeeter came along there was a miscommunication and the breeder did not dock his. I'm so happy about that! I'll tell you there is nothing like a happy yorkie wagging his long tail!

As far as dew claws go....I have had at the very least one dog in my house all of my life and most of them had/have dew claws. In all that time only once did we have a dew claw accident when Cassie evidently caught it on something. It was very painful for her and it took a long time to heal. so I am really on the fence. If it doesn't hurt the puppy it is probably a good thing but after watching the video I have my concerns.

This is just one of those debates where everyone has their opinion on it, but it doesn't make one side right or wrong. JMO. I have been present and held puppies for the vet for tail dockings and I still prefer the look of a docked tail on the breeds that have them. The Schnauzer clip is part of what gives the Schnauzer it's "preferred" look. How do you get that look with a long tail? A friend of mine has a Minature Schnauzer with a long tail and she doesn't have her clipped. She says no one knows she's a Schnauzer. They think she's a mix breed. I think the Yorkie looks great with or without a long tail, but some breeds not so much and they kind of get mixed in with other breeds. Again, JMO.

Deb I believe you.
I'm sure many do feel pain (believe you too Alice's mom) seems there are two methods-i thought there was three.
I got my ears pierced and I didn't notice the first one at all just heard the click and the second didn't feel a thing until the gun got stuck-it was 1 1/2 hours of pain with a piercing gun stuck to my head.
I use to freak at the idea of branding cows until i actually watched a branding done properly-having said that, I'm sure many can find videos of branding showing otherwise, perhaps there are more factors involved in method, prep, experience of docker that play a larger role in the experience, outcome rather than generalizations of the entire issue.

In the video is that a vet:an experienced vet with this procedure? Really I'm asking...

Hope OP is getting not only answers to their question, but some detailed information based on the other posts aiding in their decision.