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-   -   Trainer says give 2nd Yorkie back to breeder (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/184041-trainer-says-give-2nd-yorkie-back-breeder.html)

BayAreaDesigner 09-11-2009 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxwellHouse (Post 2797183)
:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:
I didn't have any collars at all so he pulled her down the street using the harness I had on her, after I was explaining that you shouldn't use collars then he used the loop at the other end of the leash to put around her neck and dragged her a little further with that. That's when he said he never heard of any problems with collapsing tracheas. I was sort of in shock and then he stopped. We were getting ready to deck him if he hadn't. I think he was pretty sure that he could get her to walk but she didn't. I got the feeling that failure was not in his vocabulary that night.

BayAreaDesigner 09-11-2009 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyWife313 (Post 2796812)
I agree that guy sounds like an old school big dog "trainer." I've trained dogs, I've worked with trainers, I'm comfortable running a training class. I commend you on being a great Yorkie mommy and trying to do what's best for your little ones.

As far as your questions, you can definitely find all the answers you need on here. IF you can't find them by searching, just start a new thread on it. TRUST ME anything you are going through or will go through, people on here have been there and can help. While we are a group of strangers on a forum, there are also professional breeders, lawyers, doctors, stay at home moms, professional trainers, professional everything, so you can get great advice. We may not be YOUR vet, trainer, breeder, but we can offer help and advice for you to go to YOUR vet or breeder with.

And it is a good idea to spend quality time with each girl separate from the other. I see no harm in letting them sleep together as long as they get along and you trust them, but yes they do need their alone mommy time.That's also a good time for training. Leave one in the crate, take one out, work on building basic foundation skills and teaching the manners you want them to know. Then do the same with the other. When they both have them down pat, you can work on reinforcing these ideas together.

And I agree, Victoria Stilwell is a great positive trainer with some good methods. Most trainers use positive reinforcement these days anyway.
Good luck!
Great advice. I do watch It's Me or the dog and I have been searching thru the multitude of books trying to figure out which ones to get (I have all the yorkie books and magazines already). I am also looking for something that goes a bit more into how animals communicate. I kind of like that level of interaction too. Thanks for your help!

joeyandtanksmom 09-11-2009 09:08 PM
I think the guy you hired is nuts. I have two unneutered males (16 months and 10 months), and they are just fine - they play fight of course, but they're never actually angry with each other. I do use collars for them (4 and 5 lbs), but I have worked very hard to train them, and they don't pull on their leashes. I would never use one of the choke chains though! That's just not appropriate for a tiny little yorkie...I could see one on a pit bull, lab, or rottie, but not a dog as small as a yorkie. That's just asking for tracheal collapse. If it seems that your babies are getting along well, there's no reason to think that it won't end up well. Of course there's gonna be a dominant one - that's how dogs are! They are pack animals. I'm sorry, but that just irks me...I would definitely wait to get your babies fixed, also. If they're too small, their bodies don't handle the anesthesia well. If anything, I would probably be more prone to putting it off. Then again, that's just kinda how I am...;)

For getting them to walk on their leash, what I did was carried a treat. I would put the treat where they could see it, then I would just say stuff like "come on", and act very excited, like it was the most fun thing to do...Eventually they'll catch on. When they follow, give a treat, and try it again! I took little training treats and cut them in 4 pieces, so I wouldn't upset little tummies.

I wish you the best of luck with your puppy training!

LilMissy 09-11-2009 10:22 PM
Oh my gosh! I wouldn't have paid him! That trainer gave you the worst advice possible, and probably set your little one back in her training by dragging her down the street like that.

As far as owning 2 females...I've owned different pairs of female dogs for the last 27 yrs. I've never had a problem. I've never owned 2 yorkies, but I don't see how it could be any different from other small breed dogs.

bugsmomma 09-11-2009 10:39 PM
I have 4 female dogs, 1 male. 3 of the girls are Yorkies, the other is a Sheltie. We have play fights everyday!! Occasionally I have to step in as the "noise" gets a little much for me. Everyone in my house lives in relative peace! It's like having multiple children~ for the most part I let them work it out but when it gets too hairy, I step in. You will learn the noises as they grow and they will learn from each other how far they can go. I agree with the lady at the vet's that they will be the best of friends!!

BaxtersMommy 09-11-2009 10:40 PM
Another thing, I always get my puppies in pairs. Maybe not on the same day, but within weeks of each other. AND they have all done wonderfully. It does take work, but I love that they have each other during the day to play with and they absolutely ADORE one another. The first 2 months they were in separate crates, now they sleep together. They cuddle up & are so cute. Everything this guy says, I disagree with.

BayAreaDesigner 09-12-2009 09:21 AM
To develop them individually, I read that they need separate crates so I bought another one last night. I have the wire medium size ones which is what they sleep in within the bigger xpen. I got it so they both have a place to go if they want to get away from each other. I put the younger pup in the new one and left her for about 90 mins so she could get used to it. When I let her out they switched crates (so funny)but did end up sleeping separately. Their crate doors stays open at nite so they can potty in the litter box (I am not training outside elimination exclusively). I have been walking them with another lady in our bldg who has a yorkie and pug but this morning I took the little one out for a walk alone (Lily won't walk on the leash now anyway, so I will walk her alone on our next walk). Since they are in daycare M-F (for now) I am going to rotate ea eve spending alone time w/ea switching off. I have multiple xpens on ea level of my condo (2 levels). I try to feed them separately but they end up eating out of the same bowl.

Ladymom 09-12-2009 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaDesigner (Post 2797802)
To develop them individually, I read that they need separate crates so I bought another one last night. I have the wire medium size ones which is what they sleep in within the bigger xpen. I got it so they both have a place to go if they want to get away from each other. I put the younger pup in the new one and left her for about 90 mins so she could get used to it. When I let her out they switched crates (so funny)but did end up sleeping separately. Their crate doors stays open at nite so they can potty in the litter box (I am not training outside elimination exclusively). I have been walking them with another lady in our bldg who has a yorkie and pug but this morning I took the little one out for a walk alone (Lily won't walk on the leash now anyway, so I will walk her alone on our next walk). Since they are in daycare M-F (for now) I am going to rotate ea eve spending alone time w/ea switching off. I have multiple xpens on ea level of my condo (2 levels). I try to feed them separately but they end up eating out of the same bowl.
Sounds like you are doing everything right with your two! :thumbup:

That's the biggest mistake people make when they get two puppies at the same time, not letting them develop individually. It can lead to separation anxiety later on.

Two that are never separated also tend to bond more with one another than their owners.

Sounds like you are up to the challenge of raising two puppies successfully!

jrsygal37 09-12-2009 09:36 AM
I have four females and one male. My oldest Bella is Alpha. She is 5 yrs. old. Noel is 4 yrs. old, Tia is 3 yrs. old, Lilly is 2 years old and Beans is just over a year old. All are rescues and none had a good start in life. I've had only a couple of issues and that was only between Bella and Noel, but nothing serious. Just small fights that were easily broken up. All mine are spayed and I do think that makes a big difference. I've heard of unspayed females as well as males fighting. Occassionally, you will also have two spayed or neutered males fight, but really I believe it is a personality conflict rather then the sex of the dogs. You would never want two Alphas in the house, that would spell trouble but if you have two and one is more submissive that should be a good match. I have to be honest and say that I really do not like your trainer. His approach to me is terrible. I have never used a trainer. All mine have had issues from abuse, neglect, and non socialization. Noel took four years before she'd trust strangers. We NEVER drug her by her collar to get her to walk. Firmness in some instances is good but I'm a firm believer in patience and love will get you further. With Lola is she has not been socialized, you need to go slow with her and teach her love. This is far better then having her behave out of fear. Just my opinion. And, I really would not jump to conclusions that just because they are two females they will not get along. IF they are showing signs NOW of fighting or aggression towards each other then yes, I would agree that finding a new home for your newest would be best but I would not necessarily send her back to the breeder either if she was not socialized. Good Luck.

Elaine

BayAreaDesigner 09-12-2009 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsygal37 (Post 2797819)
I have four females and one male. My oldest Bella is Alpha. She is 5 yrs. old. Noel is 4 yrs. old, Tia is 3 yrs. old, Lilly is 2 years old and Beans is just over a year old. All are rescues and none had a good start in life. I've had only a couple of issues and that was only between Bella and Noel, but nothing serious. Just small fights that were easily broken up. All mine are spayed and I do think that makes a big difference. I've heard of unspayed females as well as males fighting. Occassionally, you will also have two spayed or neutered males fight, but really I believe it is a personality conflict rather then the sex of the dogs. You would never want two Alphas in the house, that would spell trouble but if you have two and one is more submissive that should be a good match. I have to be honest and say that I really do not like your trainer. His approach to me is terrible. I have never used a trainer. All mine have had issues from abuse, neglect, and non socialization. Noel took four years before she'd trust strangers. We NEVER drug her by her collar to get her to walk. Firmness in some instances is good but I'm a firm believer in patience and love will get you further. With Lola is she has not been socialized, you need to go slow with her and teach her love. This is far better then having her behave out of fear. Just my opinion. And, I really would not jump to conclusions that just because they are two females they will not get along. IF they are showing signs NOW of fighting or aggression towards each other then yes, I would agree that finding a new home for your newest would be best but I would not necessarily send her back to the breeder either if she was not socialized. Good Luck.

Elaine
I agree with your post and I agree also about the trainer. I was only hiring him for a one session consult, just to get some basic starter info. Didn't plan to keep him on. Certainly won't be calling him back again, that's for sure. Our philosophies did not match. Even not knowing what to do I had a bad feeling about what he was telling me. So happy to have the support of most on the forum. My girls seem to be adjusting well to ea other and I don't want them to behave out of fear either.

BayAreaDesigner 09-12-2009 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladymom (Post 2797809)
Sounds like you are doing everything right with your two! :thumbup:

That's the biggest mistake people make when they get two puppies at the same time, not letting them develop individually. It can lead to separation anxiety later on.

Two that are never separated also tend to bond more with one another than their owners.

Sounds like you are up to the challenge of raising two puppies successfully!
what do you think about spaying?? There seems to be a wide range of opinions re what age to do it. What do you think?

QuickSilver 09-12-2009 12:18 PM
I love Victoria Stilwell, you can learn a lot from her.

It is true that two females are more likely to fight than a male/female pair, esp. if they are unspayed, but it is not a CERTAINTY.

If you watch them play, you should be able to get a feel for when it is getting too rough. One thing to watch for is if one dog gets pinned for a prolonged period of time. You should interrupt them periodically just so they know you are the Boss Woman.

If you want to learn more about dog body language, 'Calming Signals' by Turid is a great read. A much thicker and informative text is 'Body Language' by Brenda Aloff, but that one takes a lot of commitment to get though.

Onni 09-12-2009 02:19 PM
I would stay away from that fruit cake trainer! I have two females..both spayed and they get along fine.

yorkielady06 09-12-2009 04:01 PM
How are the girls getting along now? I read that one is more dominant and one more submissive. As a breeder that is the better match in females in a home, however they do tend to "disagree" more than a male/female combo (not all do however it does happen) It sounds like you and the breeder worked together to find the right fit with your other pup, you are using socialization early and regularly, and seem to have a genuine love for your new furbabies. Just wanted to give you a kudos for being the kind of new mommy that any reputable breeder would love to have as a client....So kudos to you....:animal-pa
PS: Never use that trainer again and let everyone in your community know that. Never use that type of correction on a tiny breed dog...I would love to do that to the trainer....

morgan111 09-12-2009 04:28 PM
i have 4 in the house 3 females and 1 male and they get along very well but i do know from experience that they can fight .i had to rehome one of my boys and it was awful but if i didnt mu older boy would have killed his son it was not a nice experience so i guess it just depends on the situation .good luck with your girls

BayAreaDesigner 09-13-2009 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkielady06 (Post 2798191)
How are the girls getting along now? I read that one is more dominant and one more submissive. As a breeder that is the better match in females in a home, however they do tend to "disagree" more than a male/female combo (not all do however it does happen) It sounds like you and the breeder worked together to find the right fit with your other pup, you are using socialization early and regularly, and seem to have a genuine love for your new furbabies. Just wanted to give you a kudos for being the kind of new mommy that any reputable breeder would love to have as a client....So kudos to you....:animal-pa
PS: Never use that trainer again and let everyone in your community know that. Never use that type of correction on a tiny breed dog...I would love to do that to the trainer....
Actually they are really getting along great. At first there was all this noisy interaction (which is partly why I called the trainer, as it freaked me out) Lily was taking her own toys away and hiding them and nipping at Lola. Lola was so shy but man she has come out of her shell now, she even initiates the play with Lily. I watch them run around the coffee table and hide from ea other. Lily makes the round so fast that she ends up jumping over her on her 2nd lap around the table. Then they go off and drink some water together or lie down and chew on a toy or go lay down in the same bed. The daycare people said that Lola only wanted to play with Lily when I took them for the 1st day but she is now interacting with the other dogs as well. I boarded them for the 1st time last night (same daycare) and am anxious to see how they did. Going to get them now.

yorkielady06 09-13-2009 05:30 PM
That is awesome. Things will all work out in the long run and it seems they are doing that already. I do believe that spaying both would be the best option also. When females come into heat they do tend to get "crabby" and try to compete with each other. That is when most of the disagreements happen with my girls. Just a suggestion though, plus heats can be very messy and most doggy daycares do not allow females in season during that time. Good luck with the girls and you seem to be an awesome mom!!!:D

Pettysmith 09-13-2009 06:32 PM
Find another trainer. I don't care how highly he came recommended. His ideas and methods are not humane. Great to see they are getting along better now.

itzzbarb 09-13-2009 06:34 PM
Maybe the trainer should be sent back to where he came from. :p

mscat 09-13-2009 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaDesigner (Post 2798977)
Actually they are really getting along great. At first there was all this noisy interaction (which is partly why I called the trainer, as it freaked me out) Lily was taking her own toys away and hiding them and nipping at Lola. Lola was so shy but man she has come out of her shell now, she even initiates the play with Lily. I watch them run around the coffee table and hide from ea other. Lily makes the round so fast that she ends up jumping over her on her 2nd lap around the table. Then they go off and drink some water together or lie down and chew on a toy or go lay down in the same bed. The daycare people said that Lola only wanted to play with Lily when I took them for the 1st day but she is now interacting with the other dogs as well. I boarded them for the 1st time last night (same daycare) and am anxious to see how they did. Going to get them now.
Glad that your 2 babies are getting along so well now. It takes time for them to adjust to one anther. They work it out on their own . I have a 19month old yorkie and a 4 month old Shih tzu .my Yorkie, Suzi is the same way towards out puppy. However, the puppy has attitude, and Suzi has learned not to try and "steal" her toys or bones anymore. Suzi will lay down next to the pup and bark at her, telling her off, and trying all she can to get the pups bone or toy, but she does not go after her, the pup will growl and snap back.
Who's got the upper hand now? My 2 are good friends. I was worried when I first brought our puppy home, she was so tiny. Now Suzi is still bigger then Miely, however they can play together safer now. It is so much fun having 2 babies. I love it.

nana911 09-13-2009 08:49 PM
omg
 
I would most definitely keep this trainer's business card. File it away. Sometime down the road. Years from now, if your baby EVER, god forbid develops any kind of trachea problem, be it hereditary or what. Doesn't matter...he's gonna be the guy you're gonna want to sue...:D oh yeah!!

Ya know, I'm thinkin' of about the only place to put a prong collar right now, and it DOES involve soft, tender, starts with a 'T'... HAH! does the word testicles getcha banned? anyway...that and being dragged....

I have two girls both 4 1/2 months.. they fight like cats.. once in awhile one will yelp..the yorkie equivalent of 'uncle'...then they take a break..get a drink. and start back up... they make a huge racket sometimes..but you can tell they are having a blast. They play chase...they sleep together, eat together, explore together and sometimes go their separate ways. All part of being puppies and bonding. They'll get spayed for their 6 month birthdays. I cannot imagine one without the other. I think one would be awful lonely. And you're right. I can't see going through puppyhood twice. LOL...

You cared enough to seek expert advise and that says alot about what a great owner you are. Not your fault you got a moron. Keep that number!!

BayAreaDesigner 09-14-2009 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana911 (Post 2799938)
I would most definitely keep this trainer's business card. File it away. Sometime down the road. Years from now, if your baby EVER, god forbid develops any kind of trachea problem, be it hereditary or what. Doesn't matter...he's gonna be the guy you're gonna want to sue...:D oh yeah!!

Ya know, I'm thinkin' of about the only place to put a prong collar right now, and it DOES involve soft, tender, starts with a 'T'... HAH! does the word testicles getcha banned? anyway...that and being dragged....


I have two girls both 4 1/2 months.. they fight like cats.. once in awhile one will yelp..the yorkie equivalent of 'uncle'...then they take a break..get a drink. and start back up... they make a huge racket sometimes..but you can tell they are having a blast. They play chase...they sleep together, eat together, explore together and sometimes go their separate ways. All part of being puppies and bonding. They'll get spayed for their 6 month birthdays. I cannot imagine one without the other. I think one would be awful lonely. And you're right. I can't see going through puppyhood twice. LOL...

You cared enough to seek expert advise and that says alot about what a great owner you are. Not your fault you got a moron. Keep that number!!
LOL good thinkin!!! Thanks

YorkieMother 09-18-2009 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaDesigner (Post 2795827)
I am hoping that some of the multiple yorkie owners will weigh in here. I had a trainer who was highly recommended come to my home last week. I have 2 yorkies. Lily is 5 mos and I just got Lola about 3 weeks ago and she is 4 mos (she didn't have socialization skills as she was at the breeders for 16wks). Lily has gone thru puppy training and I have had her since she was 10 wks old. I work during the day and so I have been researching the best way to handle that (I have come home at lunch, used a dog walker and puppy daycare) and because I wanted to also make sure that the setup in my home was the best for 2 puppies I called in a trainer. One of the first things he said was that he wants to be perfectly frank with me and instructed me to give Lola back to the breeder. He said having the 2 would present major problems down the road. He said they would fight and the competition would be disastrous as they matured. The dominant one would become more dominant and aggressive. He said I would probably lose my money but that any breeder worth their salt would take her back and that I shouldn't feel guilty about it. In the long run he said I would be much better off. He said if I was going to have 2 yorkies one of them should have been a male. He said that their play was not appropriate and that 2 females spells "TROUBLE" I was sad & shocked. He also told me to get them spayed "tomorrow" The vet and I had discussed it already and decided to wait a month and have them both done at the same time. He said vets aren't trainers. Later we took the 2 pups outside because Lily had been planting when I would try to take her for a walk. He said I needed one of those collars with the prongs so she could feel it when I tug on the leash (I only use harnesses) He said there was no reason why she shouldn't wear a collar. As she would not walk he drug her down the street and then put the end of the leash around her neck and drug her a little more. She NEVER walked. I paid him $100 for the consult. Of course now she won't walk at all on the leash. I had not heard any of these negatives before I got Lola and I wonder what the opinion of some of you that have or have had multiple puppies is. Oh and, I thought the 2 of them were coming along really well together. But I guess I'm not a trainer either. Thanks
Usually the rule of thum is space your pups three years apart.
Not usually. That said we have a set here that are spaced in days apart of arrival and age and they are wonderful little/big females on spayed one not together.
If he dragged my kid down the street he would not be getting paid at all he be getting reported. there is not need for that.
I think you can do this.
I think you are smart and sending the pup back sounds silly.
With a little hard work it will be fine. They may have astronger bond with each other then you but as long as you do not mind he should go jump in a lake.
I also put two small females together and they are just fine.
If you think you can manage and I am sure you thought so before all this happened then go for it.

JL


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