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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2571275)

If the same thing happened over here, and I called the YTCA secretary for referrals, and she said that one of her dogs had been placed with someone who was breeding it, I think I would be reporting her to another member of the YTCA. Something about the whole thing doesn't sound kosher. Did she give you other referrals, or was it just this one? I wonder what other club members would think of the secretary referring her dog's offspring offspring for sale. It's not clear if this is a true mentor relationship, or if they are in the business of selling dogs, and that may mean that the dogs haven't been health screened.

I'm surprised the Yorkie Club in your country doesn't agree with the 12-week rule. I understand that bigger breed dogs can go home at 8 weeks, but a breeder should always do what's best for optimum health, and smaller breeds do better staying with the mother longer. This isn't an arbitrary rule, I imagine it's much harder for a breeder to have them this long, and I know shortens the time the are easily sellable, but so many good breeders decided this is really important for the dog, and the socialization of the dog, I would not ignore this or consider buying one from a breeder who sold before this.

I don't understand why people think that the American way is the only or the best way. Personally, I don't agree that 12 weeks is best, even for small breeds. And breed clubs in other parts of the world (like N. Ireland and South Africa, both eminently civilized countries) disagree as well.

Furthermore, N. Ireland is a small country. South Africa isn't that big, either, and when I called KUSA for referrals to breeders, they had NOTHING to give me. I had to track down a KUSA registered breeder on my own...and I got my puppy from him at 6 weeks. I think the OP was lucky to get even one referral, and if I had received the kind of referral she got, I'd be ecstatic as I would have access not only to the breeder, but to the breeder of the dam and all the info she could impart to me.

I am very disappointed at the YTers here who cannot seem to see beyond the tips of their own noses. The world is a lot bigger than the US, and the way things are done in the US are not necessarily the only "right" way to do things. If the breed club in N. Ireland thinks 8 weeks is OK and they have not had a spate of problems with pups being placed at that age...if the pups are thriving and growing up healthy, well-socialized animals (and I suspect they are), who are we to condemn an obviously successful practice?

Please, people...America is not the world, and people in other countries are not automatically wrong just because they don't share American values and practices! The lady is in N. Ireland and that's how they do things there!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetViolet (Post 2571252)

A lot of folks seem to think that they way they do things is the only right way. In the case of puppies, I think a lot of them are unaware (or have forgotten) that until very recently (last 20 years or so), puppies in America ordinarily went to their new homes as soon as they were weaned...about 6 weeks of age. These puppies grew up to be normal, healthy, well-socialized dogs, assuming their owners took good care of them. The fact that America now thinks puppies should be kept with the dam until 12 weeks does not mean that is the way it should be, only that is the way many Americans THINK it should be.

I'm an American, but I live in South Africa. Puppies here routinely go to their new homes at 6 weeks. Puddin' is in a puppy obedience class now (must be 10 weeks to enter the class), and virtually all of the puppies were obtained at 6 weeks of age. It is the norm here, apparently, and we have a wealth of healthy, well-adjusted dogs in this country!

Personally, I think 12 weeks is past the optimum age for bonding. I think 8 to 10 weeks is ideal. At 8 weeks Puddin' was still wanting to be cuddled and nurtured. By 12 weeks, a lap and a cuddle was far less interesting than what might be under the sofa or behind the curtains.

Some people forget that the customs of their country are not shared throughout the world, and that people who do things differently are not necessarily wrong, just different.

Puddin' came with no guarantees or contracts of any kind and no testing. I met both her parents and was in the home she was raised in. It was clean, the dogs and puppies were obviously loved and well-cared for, and very well socialized.

Perhaps I am taking as risk by paying top price for a dog without a "genetic defects" contract, but I think of her more like a child in that regard: I would unhesitatingly pay top money for a good doctor and birthing facility and it would never occur to me to expect someone to refund my money if my baby was born with some kind of genetic defect. It seems rather crass...and unrealistic...to ask a breeder to provide a guarantee against something over which s/he has no control.

The breeder you contacted sounds like a nice, conscientious person who thinks highly of her dog and pups. She sounds like the kind of person I would want to purchase a puppy from, as I would expect the puppy to have been gently reared by loving humans and a well-cared-for and loved mother dog, giving the pup the best start in its life as a companion. The final choice is yours, of course, but this sounds like just the kind of home I would want my puppy to come from. :2puppy:

Thank you SO MUCH for this post. Even though I love this site, some of the stuff I've read has me absolutely terrified that my breeder isn't "perfect", that I don't have a good enough health guarantee, that I'll be getting her too early (at eight weeks), etc. etc. You just reminded me that not everyone has the same ideals and I don't have to go about this process by other peoples' standards. :thumbup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetViolet (Post 2571296)

Well, I don't want to get in a world war over this, so please don't suggest I think the rule is a good one just because some Americans believe in it. The mother club in America of Yorkshire Terriers believes in this as do other small breed mother clubs. Here are some of the differences between a Maltese (another small breed) and a large breed dog, a lab.

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I am going to compare lab puppies to Maltese puppies because I have had experience with both breeds in hopes of making it more easily understandable as to why this "12-week-old" rule exists for Maltese and many other "toy" breeds.
At birth there is not a lot of difference between Maltese puppies and lab puppies.......both litters depend on their moms for food, comfort, and heat. Shortly there after the differences start to become very apparent. A litter of three week old lab puppies are up playing and maneuvering around pretty well and are usually 3 pounds or more in weight. They are also getting their teeth and starting to eat gruel. A litter of Maltese puppies at three weeks of age have an average weight of 13.5 ounces and are just barely starting to get up on their legs and maneuver around readily....they have very little coordination at this point.

By four weeks old a lab litter is usually weaned from their mom. Maltese puppies at 4 weeks old are still very dependant on their mom's for nourishment although at this point I have moved the water bowl down for them to lap and they do lick at mom's food.
By eight weeks there is a drastic difference between a litter of lab puppies and a litter of Maltese puppies. Eight week old lab puppies usually have their teeth now and are eating puppy food. They are also much larger at this point with an average weight of between 20 to 25 pounds. They also seem to be mentally more mature at this point to me and are able to go to their new homes. In many cases, my Maltese puppies do not even have teeth and are still nursing their moms at eight weeks old.
At eight weeks old my Maltese puppies whose "average" weight is 1 pound 9 ounces usually start to get teeth and when those tiny needle sharp teeth start to come in is when Mom decides it is time to wean. This is a very important and scary time for Maltese puppies. They are used to having a milk bar provided for them and many do not really want to eat that nasty old gruel. Since a Maltese puppy is still very small, normally less than 2 pounds, they are also in danger of getting hypoglycemia which is caused by them not eating enough. This can be a very dangerous time for a Maltese puppy since hypoglycemia can result in seizures and even death if not taken care of immediately. This is also the normal time when a Maltese puppy starts to learn about puppy etiquette from it's mom and any other adults around and from playing with siblings, if there is more than one puppy in the litter. They learn about appropriate doggy behavior at this point. This is very important for the future well being and mental stability of this Maltese puppy. Maltese puppies learn some valuable lessons in the weeks after weaning, including how to get along with other dogs, and that biting hurts. These are lessons, all learned in puppy play, that no dog should be without. Some of the most important lessons in life, a puppy will learn from it's mom and siblings. They NEED this time with their mom and littermates!!
An eight week old Maltese puppy may or may not be ready for it's first puppy shot. Resent studies on vaccination have proven that vaccinations given to a nursing puppy are basically worthless. They need to be weaned for that vaccination to do what it is supposed to do. My Maltese puppies are usually just receiving their first puppy shot sometime between 8 and 10 weeks old. Why do Maltese puppies need to be 12 weeks old before going to a new home??

So if you read the above paragraphs, you understand that there is indeed a difference between, larger breed and smaller breeds.

As far as you statement that she was lucky to get one referral while this may be true, I don't really consider it a true referral, since it was her own dog's offspring that was having a litter.

I'm really disappointed that we can't share what we think is good information without be accused of being narrow minded and thinking only one way is correct. If you read the above article, there are many valid reasons for the 12-week rule, and if you choose to ignore them that’s your privilege, but I think it's unfair of some of you to suggest just because many of us agree with it, and health screening we are somehow attempting to make others feel bad. I follow the advice set by the YTCA, and I believe they are the best breeders with the most knowledge of Yorkshire Terriers. If you don't care for the advice don't take it, but on whose opinion do you base this as poor advice, your own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elaine Benise (Post 2571317)

There are no perfect breeders, but you can improve your chances of finding a good breeder and a healthy dog, if you have some knowledge on what makes a good breeder.

I did not want to start a debate on this.

I genuinely wanted advice on whether this is a good route to go down.

The arguments for keeping the pups to 12 weeks as outlined with the Maltese is a physical one rather than a socialisation one, but I can see valid points, but most Yorkies over here seem to start to be weaned at 4 weeks as well, so would this not be similar time frames to the lab?

What difference would it make to the secretary of the club whether someone that has offspring from one of her pups sells them or not? She would have no financial benefit, no moral obligation etc. Surely the reason she recommend her first off is because she knows the bloodlines inside out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2571333)

There are no perfect breeders, but you can improve your chances of finding a good breeder and a healthy dog, if you have some knowledge on what makes a good breeder.

I completely agree!! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2571330)

If you don't care for the advice don't take it, but on whose opinion do you base this as poor advice, your own?

Are you implying my opinion is less valid than yours?

People have been breeding Yorkies in this country for as many years as they have in the US. We have a kennel club that reciprocates with AKC and The Kennel Club (UK). Our dogs are no less fine than yours. But our puppies go to their homes as early as 6 weeks and they do just fine.

Different is not necessarily better or worse. If your standards work for you, I am not suggesting you change them. It is fine to give your opinion of the subject to others, but I don't think it is fair to do it in a way that condemns those who disagree with your opinion. The fact is, thousands of dogs (millions, if you count the ones from before this 12 week trend started) have lived long, healthy, well-adjusted lives having left their mothers before 12 weeks of age. And thousands of them continue to do so today, in other countries. It works. It has worked for decades. And it works well. I see absolutely no reason to change it.

My own opinion...which is every bit as valid as yours...is that a puppy bonds best while it is still in its dependency stage, before the independent and exploration stage sets in. Puddin' got that stage at about 11 weeks.

You may believe whatever you want, but you cannot ignore the fact that, all over the world puppies are going to their homes between 6 and 8 weeks of age and growing into thriving, well-adjusted dogs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shell820810 (Post 2571349)

It's obvious you weren't trying to start a debate. But, when you ask for advice, you're going to get all different kinds. :) And when people don't all agree, they defend their reasoning. I think that's why a lot of posts end up in debates. It's all good so long as we're all civil and kind and realize that we are all entitled to our own opinions. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by shell820810 (Post 2571349)

The arguments for keeping the pups to 12 weeks as outlined with the Maltese is a physical one rather than a socialisation one, but I can see valid points, but most Yorkies over here seem to start to be weaned at 4 weeks as well, so would this not be similar time frames to the lab?

What difference would it make to the secretary of the club whether someone that has offspring from one of her pups sells them or not? She would have no financial benefit, no moral obligation etc. Surely the reason she recommend her first off is because she knows the bloodlines inside out?

I agree.

If it was me, I'd seriously consider this breeder...you know a lot more about her already than some people ever learn about theirs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by shell820810 (Post 2571349)

While it's physical in most aspects, it's social in this aspect as noted in the last paragraph:

Quote:

This is also the normal time when a Maltese puppy starts to learn about puppy etiquette from it's mom and any other adults around and from playing with siblings, if there is more than one puppy in the litter. They learn about appropriate doggy behavior at this point. This is very important for the future well being and mental stability of this Maltese puppy. Maltese puppies learn some valuable lessons in the weeks after weaning, including how to get along with other dogs, and that biting hurts. These are lessons, all learned in puppy play, that no dog should be without. Some of the most important lessons in life, a puppy will learn from it's mom and siblings. They NEED this time with their mom and littermates!!

I don't know if Yorkies are bigger than the average American Yorkie, and of course if all breeders in your country sell them at this age, that wouldn't be a consideration, as you have no choice.

I'm not exactly clear on how you called her, but it sounds like you called her for a referral, and it seems to me, to avoid any notion of wrongdoing, she could have referred you to another breeder in the club. Did she do this? You have no idea if she does indeed have a financial gain in these dogs. Truthfully, I'm surprised she allowed this person to breed her dog without any type of mentoring. Something's off about the whole thing. Have the dogs been health screened? Is there anyway you could talk to another member in the club about this, even though the other member doesn't have any available pups, I think you should inquire about this practice. As you stated she has no moral obligation toward the dogs, and this makes me wary. I'm not saying I would totally rule out the dog, but I would certainly check into the matter further. I think part of you is a little leery, and that's why you presented this question, but taken a poll, on how many would buy the dog, and how many wouldn't won't help answer some of the questions you have.

I'm going to give my 2 cents worth. I got my first yorkie at one day shy of 7 weeks, she was eating well and very healthy, never had any problems with her. The socializing, oh my, all I can say is she's probably been the best dog I've ever had as far as never biting at my fingers. My old vet will tell you 8-10 weeks is the best time for a pup to go to it's never family so they can start bonding with it. I'm not going to say whos right and whos wrong, because I think everyone has a good point, but, I can honestly say the ones I have gotten younger, have been much easier for me to work with on training. Maybe the question should be who got their yorkies at 12 weeks or later and has had problems still with biting, housebreaking, etc. Everyone needs to take a "chill" pill. ;) Remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Not one person is right nor wrong when it's their opinion

Can I just add, I got Millie at 14 weeks, because I read on here over 12 weeks was best. Millie was very independent, and was until she died. I sometimes wonder if we had gotten her a bit earlier, when she was a bit more needy, would she have been more affectionate.

You have gotten a lot of advice to think about! Let me add my own....
I would go and see the puppies at 6 weeks, and if you still have a good feeling about this breeder, and there is a puppy that you feel a connection to, I would get it for sure.

If the problem is the 8 wks/12 wks thing, and you feel the puppy would be better off with the mother for a little longer, I would try and work something out.

If something seems off, or she won't keep the puppy until it's a good size and eating well, walk away.

I know your heart is broken over the loss of Millie. I hope you find a little one to help to heal it. :hug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by snoopymom (Post 2571395)

Thanks, thats what I think I will do. I dont think there would be any issue with her keeping them a bit longer, I suppose 10 weeks would be a good compromise. If my patience can last that long!? :(
She definitely didnt seem in a rush to "get rid" of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shell820810 (Post 2571382)

I think Millie's independence was more a personality trait than a result of her being kept by the breeder longer.

Though there seems to be differences from country to country on how long to keep a pup, my personal experience favors keeping them longer. The Maltese info posted earlier is quite true for Yorkies, too.

Even though you received a referral from a good source, the breeder is not experienced and may not be able to evaluate whether any given pup is properly thriving or not. Since you got your Millie at 14 weeks, you don't have experience with a younger pup, either. The period from 8 to 12 weeks can be a vulnerable time for a pup so, if they're doing well at the breeder's, it may be best to have them stay a bit longer.

I would feel more comfortable getting a pup from a more experienced breeder but you know best about the choices available where you are. Getting a pup from good lines is great but a healthy pup is most important. Whatever your choice, I hope there is a health guarantee with the pup. Best of luck in whatever you choose.