Depends on more than size. If you were referred to me, if you also showed dogs, if you were located in Southern CA, if the pups temperment was what I wanted and I liked the "look" of your dogs I would. I wouldn't go all the way to Oregon to spend what I can spend here.

(you wanted me to be honest right?)

I don't think "showing" dogs makes a breeder more legitimate. It would just be one piece of the puzzle. If you show, then there is a link to you from other breeders. I would definitely consider buying from a breeder that didn't show their dogs but references would be even more important.

I wanted a Yorkie that was small and cute. Everyone's idea of cute is different and my idea of cute is pretty expansive...there are some looks I wouldn't want as my own. I saw several prospective (?) tinies during my search. They ALL looked different and I never walked based on looks. I walked from one b/c the price was ridiculous, walked from one b/c the dog seemed too attached to breeder, walked from another b/c the temperment wasn't what I wanted.

Not sure why we have to explain our desire for a tiny Yorkie. Not all of us are teens looking for the latest fad. My dog is NOT an accessory. In fact I don't even like the attention she brings to me in public! I didn't even think about that part when I got her and it's a little embarrassing sometimes.

You are correct. No one has to explain why they want a dog of any size. I'd love to see some pics of your little girl. She sounds precious! :p

Well, this is what happens when I try to take her picture!

funny you said that I took two with me and a friend to saturdays farmers market about every three steps we were stopped, then off to the Rose Gardens to take a stroll we were mobbed...actually people stopped and asked if they could take pictures of my yorkies and them together..of course I was the photographer lol too funny..Alaska to Florida walking the gardens and act as if seeing Yorkies were the highlight of their trip:)

amazing what a gravitating breed they are!!!

She's SO cute!! It looks like she's chewing on a string from your shirt! What a sweet little face. :D

But here she is at almost 18 weeks. She just topped 2.5 lbs. yesterday so she is almost on track to make it to 4lbs.

She really is cute! My Katie will be 1 year old tomorrow - August 5th!! She is 2.6 lbs and just too cute for words.

Genuinely puzzled
 

This is a great thread...and I'm learning a lot while I read...but I'm truly puzzled on this "quest" for minaturization of what is originally a small dog to begin with! If one is attracted to the Yorkshire Terrier breed...then you are attracted to ALL the attributes a yorkie was originally bred to possess, including its robust and sturdy physical traits. Its become painfully obvious from reading many of the threads in here and from personal friends with "tinies"...the breeding of Yorkshire Terriers AWAY from the standards set by the AKC has done a huge diservice..not only to the poor pups who have to spend their lives suffering through a myriad of health problems and the unsuspecting owners who deal with the financial and emotional heartbreak, ..but the the Yorkshire breed in itself.

Do I want a 4 pound Yorkshire Terrier with compact body, upright ears, silky coat and sweet face? Absolutely...but more importantly...I want my Yorkie to be the healthy, loving, feisty, in your face, little dog that will be part of my family for the next 15 years. I want it all...am I dreaming? No...I want what is within the STANDARD of the breed!

It is disheartening to go to a website and have to "listen" to the marketing propaganda. And on top of it...have them expect me to believe that I have to pay some outrageous price for some poor inferior, DNA challenged pup.

Perhaps we need to redefine the term "Responsible Breeder".....

Francie

Francie~ I am learning a lot as well, but what you have described above is not the "breed standard" as defined by AKC since the standard calls for 5-7 lb as an adult.

Your description is what the average pet lover is looking for. The majority of the tinies have the same great feist, big dog, terrier attitude. In fact, if ask those who own more than one dog, most will tell you that the smallest dog is usually the "alpha" of the pack! That's how it is at my house. lol.

The yorkie was originally bred as a miniaturization of a few other terrier breeds becasue of the need to develop a "ratter" who could fit into the holes and buroughs and pull out their prey and they later wanted a lap dog so they bred smaller and smaller. The "standard" and what is winning in the show ring is gradually changing to since some judges like the smaller yorkies and they are winning in some areas of the country. So this miniaturization has been going on for a while now.

My 2 cents...
 

When I was looking for a Yorkie, I wanted a small one. (On the other hand...small to me is 4-6lbs. lol) The lady I bought Rika from said that she was the tiniest pup in the litter and she didn't think she was going to be very big. (Granted she wasn't a reputable breeder...nor did she know anything about breeding dogs in general.) When I picked up Rika, she was 6 weeks old and 2lbs. Her brother and sisters were all like 2-3lbs.) I was so happy I had a Yorkie that I didn't care how big she got. Luckily, she did get "big". 11lbs is huge for a Yorkie. But you know what? It's still a small dog. When I get another Yorkie, I'm not going to really care about size. In fact an 8-9 pounder will probably be better since Rika is so big and can play rough. I don't think a 2-3lber would even survive in my house. My *Ferrets* way more than that and I think it's outrageous to have dogs of that size. Anyway...just wanted to throw my thoughts in and I'll stop before I get mean.

The standard does not state a size that is too small- it states a size too large. So the little ones are still to the standard. Do I like the little ones NO.
I would like to have all my kids atleast 4 1/2 pounds as adults.

My concern with the little ones as well as the puppy who matures to be over 7 pounds is the ignorance of the owner. As a breeder I try hard to match the puppies to the proper home. Some folks do not tell the truth and I have to investigate to make sure that they are not trying to pull the wool over my eyes. The tines do not mix with small children- that is an accident waiting to happen. The tines do not mix with any child who in my viewing is rough and rowdy I am hard pressed to let any puppy go to that type of situation. My 27 year old daughter has pleaded for a puppy or a retired adult- I would no more let her have one then the man in the moon- The girl is never home. She just wants a novelty.


The price of yorkies in some ares are more expensive- just look at the cost of the homes. I guess if you live in a high cost area you will pay what many of us think is a inflated price for the cost or your baby. That explains why I have people from California flying out here for babies.

responsible breeder would be an interesting topic and I bet a lot of disagreements.

That is true with my dogs. Katie is a 2.6 lb dog who thinks she's a 100 lb rotti! She has more spirit than any other dog I've seen and she's not afraid of anyone (which can be a bad thing because she's so itty bitty). :D

Same thing happens to me....looks like we have the same camera strap.

"This is just my opinion, it is frustrating dealing with people who preach one way, but do another. I am so sick of hearing "breed standard" from people who then turn around and throw "breed standard" out the window to benifit them.... if you are going to preach it, then follow it... don't use it as an excuse to talk people out of breeding, if you yourself don't follow the standard. By the way "tinies" under 4 lbs are not breed standard, and breeding small dogs to get tinies is also not following the AKC Breed standards. You can't have it both ways...."

Amen! I get so confused sometimes - the people who preach the loudest against tinies are the ones who have the tiniest! I get the feeling that no one but them deserves to have one or can be trusted to care for one. I also worry that by all the "advertising" their tinies get on the forums it does nothing but create desire in people to have them too, which in turn creates a bigger demand, which in turn increases the breeding programs for tinies. I don't know what the answer is but imo it is a serious problem. I breed within the standard and in all my litters the smallest puppy I have ever had is almost 4 lbs. I guess somehow I have escaped the 20% idea. I'm not trying to be critical but it is just so confusing. I worry alot about all the downsizing going on. 95% of the calls I get for Yorkies, the first question is "how small will they be?"
This is a great post - I appreciate learning from all sides of the issue.

I am against breeding INTENTIONALLY for tinies, yet I own one. Am I a hypocrite? No, I am not. I did NOT want a “tiny” when I searching for a Yorkie. I did not call breeders and ask if they had any tinies available. The day I bought Codie from Quality Canine, I told Cathie (the owner and breeder) that I was interested in purchasing a female Yorkie in a few months so that Codie would have a companion and friend to keep him company during the day. Anyway, a few months later SHE CALLED ME and told me about this 5 month old girl who was 14 ounces. Cathie had held on to Katie for 5 months because she was afraid to sell such a tiny dog – but especially to sell her to the WRONG owners. She knew me personally (because I use to live at my parents house which is 1 block away from her house, so we were neighbors) and she felt that I was responsible enough to take care of Katie. So I agreed to come down and meet Katie. It was love at first sight! I didn’t care if Katie would remain 14 ounces or grow to be an 800 lb gorilla with green hair, I just KNEW that I had to have her!

After having said all that, do I still think that intentionally breeding for tinies is wrong? Absolutely. Was Katie bred to be tiny? No, she was not. She was the ONLY tiny in her litter.

I stand corrected
 

[QUOTE=SoCalyorkiLvr]Francie~ I am learning a lot as well, but what you have described above is not the "breed standard" as defined by AKC since the standard calls for 5-7 lb as an adult.

Your description is what the average pet lover is looking for. The majority of the tinies have the same great feist, big dog, terrier attitude. In fact, if ask those who own more than one dog, most will tell you that the smallest dog is usually the "alpha" of the pack! That's how it is at my house. lol.

The yorkie was originally bred as a miniaturization of a few other terrier breeds becasue of the need to develop a "ratter" who could fit into the holes and buroughs and pull out their prey and they later wanted a lap dog so they bred smaller and smaller. The "standard" and what is winning in the show ring is gradually changing to since some judges like the smaller yorkies and they are winning in some areas of the country. So this miniaturization has been going on for a while now.[/QUOTE


I stand corrected....forgive my misprint...I was referring to the AKC standard which IS 5-7 pounds.

I'm confused then...if the AKC "standard" represents the "Best attributes" of the breed...doesn't that include health? The ethical question I posed in my post basically refers to this..At what point can we "tinker" with the DNA of the Yorkshire Terrier (or any breed for that matter) without sacrificing the health of the dog? And the bottom line is that we HAVE sacrificed the health of these breeds. We can cloak it....we can give all sorts of reasons why we want a tiny tiny dog...or...we can even say that we dont NEED to give a reason and absolve us of all accountability But the bottom line is...by breeding and/or buying these tinies...we are part of the problem.

And quite frankly...some "high five" by some misdirected ( not to mention politically motivated )Judge is no reason to perpetuate the damage we have done to this breed.

Francie

Go to YTCA.ORG breed standard is listed under weight it states simply- must not exceed 7 pounds. This was adopted 4/12/1966. I will follow this guidline until it is changed. I may not like someone breeding a female under 4 1/2 pounds but it is the breeders choice. They live with the results good or bad thay may come from this type of breeding.

Many of us are not trying to talk folks out of breeding we just want you to educated about what you are doing. I would want you to know what you are doing before you tried to fly a commercial airplane. It is much easier to mentor someone before they make a mistake then after. The well being of the female is number one and then the resulting puppies number two and the new owners are number three. Folks need to know what they are doing- you need to have a cookbook and follow the recipee. Sometimes just winging it from scratch just does not work.

lol at "fly a commercial airplane"...too funny

Francie

this was the entire point of my posting this thread

is the runt worth more than any other litter mate?? NO! does it have any more health risks?? not normally!!!

does it cost a breeder more to rear a litter from a 3 lb bitch than a 5.5lb bitch???? NO! not usually!

then why do some breeders charge more for their tinies??? because the consumer will pay it plain and simple!

Is a breeder unethical when he/she capitalizes on the "runt" and raises thats runts price three times the rest of the litters pricing?? The average litter mate sells for $1000 but the runt is priced at $4000 is that fair practice or capitalizing???

Very well put.

I don't think the fact that we may condone breeding smaller is, in and of itself, damaging the breed, by any stretch of the imagination, so I don't understand the concern because the statisitics (what few there are) do not show more health risks or genetic defects in smaller yorkies than in the larger ones. I do not think there is any scientific or medical reason that makes intentionally breeding smaller yorkies a bad thing. Obviously as Kathy states it has to be under the guidance of experienced breeders mentoring new breeders and following the priorities of good breeding practices.

http://www.ytca.org/faq.html#A

that explains where the 4-7lb. idea came in.

That is exactly right...Economics 101. Is it shameful to make a profit on breeding yorkies? Not in my opinion. I have read on here where people don't think breeders should make breeding their livlihood, but I would argue that it should be or they will not have the time to devote to it. If they have to go out and have a 9-5 job to pay their bills, they are not there caring for the yorkies. I see nothing in least wrong with making such a fabulous hobby a money making venture. It is the American way and they sure work hard, that's for sure. I have said many times that I could never be a breeder. It is a 24/7 job and most make way less than minimum wage from the people who buy the puppies if they even make a profit which a lot don't.

I would feel guilty if I paid less for a puppy than it cost that breeder to adequately care for that puppy and its momma.

KIM this is the same as yesterdays, you defended your friend for charging $4000 for her female and $950 for the male out of the same litter. You were stead fast defending her breeding practices, what a loving caring giving breeder she is...but oops gotta charge ya more Mr/Mrs consumer because she is my little diamond in the rough and my mortgage. Let me tell you that breeder isnt feeling gulity why would you!

I am a breeder Kim make sense of this IT COST ME NOTHING MORE to raise the girl or the boy!

very good point Feminvstr. I remember this same conversation yesterday too.

Wow, that is a HUGE difference. I am not a breeder and have no knowledge of what is involved but I think that price difference is outrageous.

I spent $2500. for a pet and I don't regret it for a minute. I bought a show breeder reject. :eek: (too small to show OR use FOR breeding)

My breeder doesn't make a living off of her pups but she uses money from her litters to support her hobby (showing champions for about 30 years). I don't think that is a bad thing. I don't even think it's a bad thing for people to breed responsibly and make their living off of it. Better than petshops?

Why would breeders keep doing this if they didn't make a profit? The joy of watching mother nature over and over and over again? yaright.

We all have to do what we feel comfortable with and everyone sees this differently. I would never buy from a pet shop, newspaper ad or an online website, but I have friends that did and they got wonderful pets.

[QUOTE=SoCalyorkiLvr]I don't understand the concern because the statisitics (what few there are) do not show more health risks or genetic defects in smaller yorkies than in the larger ones. I do not think there is any scientific or medical reason that makes intentionally breeding smaller yorkies a bad thing. QUOTE]

Special circumstances often come with extra tiny dogs. They are extremely
susceptible to both hereditary and non-hereditary health problems, including
birth defects that may go undetected for a long time. Other common
problems may include, but are not limited to, diarrhea, vomiting, along with
extra and expensive tests prior to routine teeth cleanings and surgeries.
Small ones are more likely to have poor reactions to anesthesia and die from
it. Tiny dogs are more easily injured by falls, being stepped on and being
attacked by other dogs. These health problems nearly always result in
large veterinary bills. http://www.ytca.org/faq.html