I got the info Here - http://www.doggiesparadise.com/puppymills.shtml

The puppies from these puppy mills are called "purebreds" but often assume little similarity to their breed standard. Decisions about which male to use with which female are based on profitability, leaving genetic issues for the unsuspecting puppy buyers to worry about later.

Unsafe breeding practices incline puppy mill dogs to inherited disorders like immune system deficiency, hip dysplasia, demodectic mange, seizures, yeast infections, or aggressive dog behavior.

Puppy mills over breed indiscriminately, as often as they can with as little cash output as possible. Puppy mills owners do not care about the future health of the puppies or the ruin they will cause in the lives of the people who buy them.

Furthermore, registration papers do not guarantee proper breeding conditions, health, quality, or claims to lineage of the puppy.

Lovely business isn't it.

I disagreed and did not believe many things on his FAQ page.
To me this is a mill.

And to really get us going ...This is famous now - it's a poem called 'Before I Die '- the life of a Puppy Mill dog...the last line sends Chills thru me.

'Tis lonely here in prison,
I dream of sun, of fields,
I saw them from a window once,
but I don't know how they feel.

I've never known a caress,
a friend, a bone, a toy,
I'd happily companion,
a human girl or boy.

But some men have decided,
with selfishness and greed,
that my fate shall be a cage,
and for my keep, I'll breed.

What should fuel this folly?
My kind may bark in vain.
We care not for your commerce,
and few know of our pain.

We're hidden well from justice,
for our freedom some may cry.
God grant me, please, just one request -
Let me play once before I die.

V, thanx for your info. Did you do a cut and paste or write it in your own words? No matter, it was good girl..unfortunately, no matter who writes what (not on this forum but in general) there will be millers and unsuspecting buyers. Although the both of them could learn better..

You were right Rini here's their 'warranty'. I'm going to try to bold the real interesting Parts. It may be good for TP.
WARRANTY



THESE PUPPIES ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO BE PERFECT, IN PERFECT HEALTH, OR

OTHERWISE ANY OTHER WORD DESCRIBING PERFECTION. THEY ARE LIVING CREATURE AND BECAUSE OF THAT HAVE ALL THE QUALITIES AND SHORTCOMINGS OF OTHER LIVING CREATURES. THESE PUPPIES ARE COVERED BY A CONDITIONAL AND LIMITED "STRAIGHT TALK" WARRANTY ONLY AND ANYTHING THAT IS NOT LISTED HEREIN WILL BE EXCLUDED AND NOT COVERED AND WILL BE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PURCHASER.

1. INITIAL REPLACEMENT POLICY:

The person within 5 days after purchase has the puppies examined by a licensed veterinarian to validate this warranty. If the veterinary certifies in writing in letterform that a puppy has any life-threatening medical problems, the puppy may be returned and replaced with one of equal value and price. There are no cash refunds. PUPPY HAVEN reserves the right to withhold replacement if a veterinarian of its selection does not confirm diagnosis. Medical speculation will NOT be considered. Absolutely no "returned puppies" will enter the kennel.

EXCLUSION TO THE REPLACEMENT POLICY ARE AS FOLLOWS: kennel cough, bronchitis, respiratory infection, ear mites, monarchic, cryptorchid, undershot, overshot, show-breed-field qualities (or lack of), parasites (interior or exterior), hernias (known or unknown). A $25.00 reduction will be given when a puppy is purchased if it has a hernia.
2. FATAL DISEASE POLICY:

If a puppy dies as a result of distemper, hepatitis, corona, parvo or leptospirosis during the first 5 years from the date of purchase, PUPPY HAVEN will replace puppy with one of equal dollar value, provided: An autopsy is completed at the expense of the purchaser and the findings of the autopsy are documented in letter form and a copy given to PUPPY HAVEN

3. CONGENITAL DEFECT POLICY:

If the puppy is diagnosed as having a congenital heart murmur or hip displacia during the first 5 years from the date of purchase, the puppy must be returned and PUPPY HAVEN will replace the puppy with one of equal value and price, provided: x-rays (for dysplasia) are taken (at the expense of the purchaser) and a letter provided and both submitted to PUPPY HAVEN and/or a veterinarian of its selection and that the diagnosis is confirmed by a veterinarian of PUPPY HAVEN selection. Heart murmur will require a diagnostic letter and confirmation.

4. SUPPLEMENTARY TERMS:

1. PUPPY HAVEN is under no circumstances whatsoever obligated for any veterinarian expenses or medical procedures including, but not limited to, the following: physical exams, vaccinations, special diets, surgery, all medications, x-rays, emergency calls, or treatments of medical baths.

2. This puppy is sold and represented as a pet and companion animal only. PUPPY HAVEN is not responsible for it's show, breed or field qualities or lack of them.

3. Under no circumstances will there be any cash refunds.

4. Although inevitable in pet ownership, emotional attachment by the purchaser cannot be considered in policy decisions.

5. The warranty is not valid to anyone but the purchaser listed on it and is not transferable to anyone but the purchaser. Also, it is not extended to any other animal/pet with which the puppy may come into contact and PUPPY HAVEN is not responsible in any way for these animals/pets.

6. X-rays, autopsy reports and diagnostic letters are required for the above policies (at purchasers expense, if applicable) and must be submitted to PUPPY HAVEN when required or this warranty becomes invalid.

7. In the event of a medical problem with the puppy, the puppy must be returned to PUPPY HAVEN when requested.

8. This warranty will become invalid if the puppy does not receive an annual checkup (after puppy is at least 1 year old) by a licensed veterinarian.

9. PUPPY HAVEN is not responsible in any way for problems related to behavior, environment or training or lack of.

10. PUPPY HAVEN will not accept for return or exchange any puppy for allergy (known or unknown), marital or landlord-tenant problems or any problem not related to the life or health of the puppy.

Pat~

I have read everything on the site and cannot find where he said this. I saw where he said "genetic defects are rarely seen in the hybrids". Is that the quote you meant?

OMG THAT CONTRACT IS SICK ! Wow - Now I've heard it all - lol...yup talk about covering EVERY inch of their own butt - they mst have BIG butts cause that was alot of CYA'ing

Are we going to PICK this apart ? Why keep going over irrevelant things - it's redundant to keep harping on small details - the overall picture here is pretty clear to most of us.

Any product to sell that is done in a "factory" type set up is a mill. If you commercially breed dogs strictly to sell for profit, raise them all in an assembly line type set up, your a mill.

Here is the definition that applies.


Mill........
"A process, agency, or institution that operates in a routine way or turns out products in the manner of a factory: The college was nothing more than a diploma mill. "

Generous, huh? You can return the puppy and then IF they so desire after their vet diagnoses the pup/dog as he sees fit.This is the usual agreement..who is gonna send a puppy BACK to them and get another one with the same probability of problems..

Thank you !! Clean or dirty - a mill is a mill - same breeding reasons - same end result - There is no care or love for these animals - just profit for the Mill.

It's hard to believe that anyone who likes dogs at all would think this is okay and defend it in anyway at all.

Would you be willing to share your contract with us for comparision purposes? Is yours the same as Pat's? As an attorney I am always interested in reading contracts. I actually thought his spelled out the expectations of both parties well and he informed the buyers up front of his policies none of which seemed inherently unusual or one sided to me. They are free to walk after reading the contract. It was not long, in small print or full of legalese. I found it straight forward and forthright.

I think breeders get blamed for way too much when a puppy gets sick so I liked the part about the puppies not being "perfect". No one is perfect...we are all flawed in some way.

Wow, did I just set myself up with that last line??????? :D

Kim, I respect your opinion as well and have always enjoyed your friendship on this forum. But on this issue we may have to agree to disagree. I will always be strongly opposed to mass production of puppies no matter what the environment. I stand by my belief that it is not humanly possible to give that many dogs the love and affection they crave. Yorkies are cute and perky, definately, but what steals our heart is the unconditional love and affection they give us. To me, that's a special gift. It shouldn't be trodden on. This post is in no way meant to disparage you. I continue to respect your opinion. I just happen to disagree this time. Wow, I think that's a first! All relationships are made stronger by an honest exchange of ideas.

Ok, here's my 2 cents. That is a puppymill, no matter how clean, how "good" the contract sounds. He sells only hybrids, but doesn't keep them for breeding. What are these people doing with these hybirds? Probably going to breed them, here they go again :( No spay/neuter contract, especailly on these hybrids. Anyone who raises more puppies than they could handle by themselves to me is a puppymill. If they all need your attention at the same time how in the world are you going to give them the care that they need? Would you want to see your precious pet in these surroundings? I don't think so. Think about it, anyone, would you yourself want to be caged all day and never be able to be part of life, I don't think so. So I wish that our wonderful Dept. of Agri. would start to buckel down on some of these crazy guide lines that they have instituted that they think is ok, wire floors, I think it's inhuman even for chickens, but that's another story...

V You crack me up! But you know people are doing this to purebreeds! I get calls all the time for yorkiepoos! I don't do it on purpose! I sure don't see how someone could guarantee a dog for 5 years! lily

Thank you Cynthia! You have such a way with words. I too respect our friendship and our disagreement on this issue.

I also said in my first post on this thread that I didn't think they could give that many dogs the attention they deserve. Then I read where he describes them as "pack animals" and that they live with a "pack" and are very happy. It made me wonder if the human interaction is something that is obviously good for us but "would dogs choose dog companionship over humans if given the choice?"

We have had members wondering whether to get another dog for fear they would bond to each other and not bond as closely to a human. I know that some dogs like other dogs more than people. When I take Hefner out he loves meeting people, but, given the choice, he would rather meet another dog.

Just more food for thought. :)

I think we all know how happy they must be to see a 'human'....and how let down they must be when the 'humans' walk away and leave them....

being part of the "pack" must be a miserable feeling in a mill.

Whatever is stated on that site is just to justify a terrible business and they know it. No one who truly LOVES animals could ever do this.

Kim- All I can say is are you for real here? C'mon... you have dogs, how could you even begin to defend this guy? I highly doubt you are that naive that you are believing what he has posted on his website. This is not an issue where we need to "open our minds" as you like to say. All you are doing by trying to defend this operation is alienating people on the forum... can't you understand why? Not one single person has agreed with anything you have posted on this subject. No one that truly loves their dog will either. Its a puppy mill... it doesnt matter what "kind" on puppy mill you want to call it. A mill is a mill is a mill. They are bad. Puppy Mill=Bad. OKay? Why even bother to defend this when there are mixes in shelters that need homes? Why even bother to defend this when there are hobby breeders that have healthy pups? Why bother????

It doesn't surprise me one bit. You'd be shocked at how many mills advertise on the web. Thing is, most of them are smart enough to NOT take pictures of the cages.

contract
 

Pat's contract..you have not read my contract because there isn't one.. Yes, that is right I do not do contracts. Contracts are not worth the paper they are printed on unless you are going to enforce them..meaning I have to take you to court and sue. My attonery told me long ago not to waste my time with paper.
So this is what I have done for over 30 yrs...I do not let my pups go to people I do not know and trust..and they have to trust me..if not go somewhere else. This a hobby, not a business..ask RiniW how many we have given away between us?

I have never had a problem I have not made right to the pet owners satsifaction. I do not get puppy complains about the way I do things.

I give a printed health agreement, one year genetic, all information from the vet, papers are held until spay/neutered. Care instructions, all suppiles needed, carrier, bed, food and toys and grooming supplies to start..first grooming is free.
Nobody signs anything, I take your word and you take mine..and it works for me.

I thought the SAME thing ! Usually they take pics of the BEST part of the "kennel" or housing building & dress it up -

There was a reported who did undercover article about puppy mills - her article is awesome to read - and eye opening for anyone new to puppy mills -We all were ignorant of Mills at one time -

The only thing people should get from these discussions is to put out the word to your friends.... that NO ONE should ever buy a Pet Store puppy - this is where they come from.

It's a sick business and there can't be anything good said about it.

Thanks pat I never have said but that almost the way I do it! Guess that's why I don't break even! lily

Maybe I am being naive, but in MY OPINION, anyone who breeds more than 3 types of any different breed of dog is a mill. It may be a small scale mill, but a mill none-the-less. I've been to places that bred 3, 4, 5, 10 different breeds and I saw all the same. Dogs outside in cages or pens. Some had air conditioning for their dogs and some did not. Either way, I never liked what I saw and considered it a mill. but like I said, this is MY OPINION.

I agree with you there! lily

So glad to hear the good news about your gramma. :)

kennel
 

The kennel is a USDA kennel. You can not go there and take a tour. It is against USDA laws. They no doubt have a common public area to view pups.
Do you know you can not as a USDA breeder have any breeding stock or puppies in the same area you live?
I consider genetic problems to be health problems. Liver shunt is genetic, is that not a health problem? Since Maltese and Yorkies are two of the most prone to LS, how does it make their offspring less predisposed to LS?

There are members here who crate their dogs all day long while they are at work and the dogs are all alone with no companion at all and no exercise. The cages pictured in this kennel are large with outdoor yards and other dogs for company. I would not judge either situation negatively.

Pat-My breeder does things pretty much the same way... She told me that if I was not happy with Bunny for ANY reason whatsoever that I could return her for a FULL refund and that she would even pay for her return flight back. As far as a contract goes... my Health Guarantee IS my contract. I signed that I agreed to it (2yr); She holds the papers until Bunny is spayed.

You are right. I don't crate mine, but I do close them off in the kitchen while I am away from my home. The difference, Kim, is that when I get home, I let the dogs out, love on them and give them the attention that they need and deserve. With this kennel, they have so many dogs that probably the only interaction they get from people is when someone comes to feed, water them and clean out their pens.