You know, I've been juggling with the idea of writing Pfizer, the manufacturer of Revolution, to let them know what happened. If they're decent and consciencious, they'll investigate further. And if did have something to do with what happened, they can warn people... and maybe save a lot of people a lot of heartache... :(

The first bitch I ever bred had almost the same thing happen to her. two puppies but one was born dead and horribly deformed. it had just died when she went into labor. i nearly lost her too. I had the vet do a spay at the same time as her C-section. I had been using Advantage. everyone here said not to but I thought my vet knew what he was talking about when he said it wouldn't hurt her. i know in my heart of heart that is what was wrong and deformed and killed my baby.

i am so sorry for your loss.

OK, that's it... now, I'm definitely writing them.

I don't think it's our vets' fault. They trust the pharmaceutical companies to know what they're doing and saying.

If no one does anything, they'll just go on giving wrong advice to people.

You know, I could feel them move up until Friday... how could they all have died?

I just went to their website. There is no address to send an e-mail for this kind of issue, only an 800 number. I'll call tomorrow and let you know what happens.

I'm so sorry for your lost.
How is the mom doing??
Breeding can be a great joy when all goes well but also very heartbreaking when things go wrong.
There have been other to use flea meds and had troubles with lost pups/litters..I don't use anything on mine, even if the Vet says its OK.
((((Hugs to you and your female))))

Mom is starting to feel better, I think... we were worried for a while, she had diarrhea, wasn't eating much, was lethargic. We took her back to the hospital and they kept her under observation overnight. They gave us antibiotics to give her for the diarrhea but she has to take it with food. That was a problem since she wasn't eating enough. So they told us to try boiling chicken and feed it to her with white rice...

And she ate like a little pig last night and again this morning... and the diarrhea's gone... :)

I'm starting to breathe again... I think she'll be OK... :aimeeyork

I am so, so sorry for you loss. That's just heartbreaking. I'm glad that she's feeling better now and eating. Hopefully she'll have a full recovery and will get back to her old self quickly for you.

I also have reservations with using Revolution on my pregnant girls. I did it once, then read horror stories and I just won't use it now. They get it at all other times, just not when they are pregnant. Luckily, we've never had a flea problem.

Breech is considerd a normal presentation,my vet would never give a section just for breech pups unless we had a problem or they looked huge on an x-ray and then he would try to at least let her have a normal delivery if at all possible.It can be a little tricky if it is the first one sometimes.
In my last litter all were butt first and we had no problems at all.
I have had more problems with heads first.(shoulders hung up front feet not coming with the head etc)

I would call Frontline Co and tell them . I haven't many c-sec but the ones I did have the puppies were fine. Once there were 2 pups only , both in the same horn. 1 was huge and the other was dead and you could tell that it didn't get the nutrition it needed and it looked yucky and preemie. My experience with dead pups is they detach from the placenta and get stuck in the canal for to long or they are born and you can tell right away that they are not right and look strange. With c-sec you might loose the first one that gets stuck, or has been under stress to long in the canal , or detaches from the placenta and doesn't get out in time for air. The pups still inside are all ok because they are still in the " safe Zone" so to speak. If they looked normal , something happened, and I would guess the frontline. I'm not a vet or a expert on breeding and anything can happen during a c-sec to mom and pups, it just seems very strange to me. Sometimes the pups are slow to come around because they get some to the meds. Once the mom is under you have to work fast to get the pups out so they don't get a heavy dose of mom's meds. Thats the only thing I can think of besides the frontline. Glad mom is better.

We are so sorry for your lose. Glad to hear Mom is doing better.

This is getting stranger and stranger:

Yesterday, I spoke with a vet from Pfizer (who manufactures Revolution). She told me a few things. First of all, apparently, the product has been EXTENSIVELY tested on pregnant and lactating bitches with no ill effect whatsoever. Even more, whenever there's a flea infestation, the product is used on lactating bitches but not directly on the pups to treat both mom and babies - it is transmitted via the mother's milk - again, without any harm.

She explained that the way the product works is that it contains a substance that destroys neurotransmitters in insects which are completely different from neurotransmitters in mammals. And that this substance is completely harmless in humans and other mammals.

She also told me something else that you might find interesting: apparently, the norms for testing and approving products for animals are even MORE stringent than those for humans...! Hum!

She checked the database in which all reports must be filed - they are obligated by law (she assured me that Bo's is going in there as well). For the ten or so years the product has been used, there is one similar report, in 2002, in a cat that had skin problems. But other products (which had not been similarly tested) had also been used simultaneously and consequently, the blame was put more on the other products than on the Revolution. She found no similar cases in dogs. However, she could check only the Canadian database and I'd still be curious to know what the American database might contain...!

Now, where it gets really weird is this: she spoke to the doctor who treated Bo at the vet hospital. And this doctor told her that the pups were breathing when they were born, but they couldn't keep them alive.

And this same doctor told me, when it happened, that the pups were born dead and that, because their skin looked a little dehydrated and no so elastic, they thought they might have been dead for a little while (maybe hours or a day).

My question is: who is she lying to...??? And why...????

I have a feeling she might have been lying to me.

And I have a feeling I might know why: We got to the hospital with Bo around 5AM, 30 minutes after the first baby was born. And they started giving ocytocin to provoke contractions. From everything I'd read on this site and others, I knew that there shouldn't be more than two hours between births... and yet, this doctor kept telling me that we could wait, that because the X-rays showed no pup in the birth canal, it was safe to wait and try more ocytocin before going to the c-section.

I figured she knew what she was talking about... so we waited. Shot after shot, we waited... Until, finally, at 9AM (4 HOURS LATER) I said: enough. Get them out!!!

So maybe, after all, it wasn't the Revolution... maybe it was just pure and simple incompetence...

Why else would she lie, other than to protect herself?

it's me again. I just went back and read your original post about giving her Oxy time after time. this is not good. i was home alone with my first whelp and had to rush to the vet. he wanted to do a section immediately but I begged him to give her a shot of oxy first. We did and waited about thirty minutes then I told him to go ahead but at the same time a show breeder friend I had called, called back and she said giving the oxy is one of the worst things i could have done at this stage because it MIGHT cause the placenta to separate from the pup.

And with all of that, I am so sad to tell you that you will probably never know. It is a CYA society and you will never get anyone to tell you what really happened. I do know that you have taught me a lesson and if it was the medicine, you have saved Lexie's litter that are due July 19th because I will NOT do her treatment this month or while she is nursing her babies because of this thread. So something good did come out of your lose...you may save many that you don't even know about. I will start to put pictures of Lexie here and you can share our joy in menory of your little ones.

Well I said I don't use anything on mine but
I do use interceptor for heartworms.
BUT (never any Flea meds)
and only give after the babies are fully developed .
Then again after birth when the pups are about 3 weeks old.
I read were interceptor is suppose to be the safest for pregnant female.
I have not had a problem yet doing it this way.

I did find some info on Revolution
Notice it says it (appears) to be safe on pregnant dogs.. NOT THAT IT IS.
This stuff also treats fleas which means there must be something else mixed with it.

Generic Name
Selamectin (see-la-mek’-tin)

Brand Name(s)
Revolution (Pfizer Animal Health)

What is this medication used for
Revolution is a topical parasiticide used in the treatment or prevention of heartworm disease, fleas, the American dog tick, ear mites and canine sarcoptic mange in dogs. When used in cats it is used in the treatment or prevention of heartworm disease, fleas, ear mites and also to prevent hookworm and roundworm disease.

Availability
Revolution is available by prescription as spot on applicators.

How this medicine should be used
Revolution is applied to the skin on the back at the base of the neck once a month, in cats and dogs. Apply the contents in one spot and do not massage in. The animal may be bathed or allowed to swim 2 hours after the medication is applied. Spot on applicators are portioned based on the pet’s weight Revolution is applied to the skin on the back at the base of the neck once a month, in cats and dogs. Apply the contents in one spot and do not massage in. The animal may be bathed or allowed to swim 2 hours after the medication is applied. Spot on applicators are portioned based on the pet’s weight: cats up to 5 pounds and 5.1-15 pounds; for dogs up to 5 pounds, 5.1-10 pounds, 10.1-20 pounds, 20.1-40 pounds, 40.1-85 pounds and 85.1-130 pounds.

What are the side effects
Side effects when using Revolution may include temporary hair loss, loss of appetite, drooling, vomiting, diarrhea, drowsiness, rapid breathing, increased heart rate, and muscle tremors.

What special precautions are there
Do not use Revolution in animals allergic to it. Do not use on puppies under 6 weeks or kittens under 8 weeks of age. Use with caution in sick, weak or underweight animals. Revolution appears to be safe to use in pregnant or lactating dogs or cats. Do not apply to wet hair. Dogs should be tested for existing heartworm disease prior to using Revolution.

In the event of overdose
Contact your veterinarian or veterinary emergency room. Symptoms of overdose, while rare, may include salivation and incoordination.

How should I store this medication
Store this medication at room temperature, in the original box. Throw away any medication that is outdated or no longer needed. Keep this medication out of the reach of children and pets.



This information sheet is for educational purposes only and is intended to be a supplement to, and not a substitute for, the expertise and professional judgment of your veterinarian. The information is NOT to be used for diagnosis or treatment of your pet. You should always consult your own veterinarian for specific advice concerning the treatment of your pet.

The information is not intended to cover all possible uses, directions, precautions, warnings, allergic reactions, drug interactions or adverse effects, nor should it be construed to indicate that use of a particular drug is safe, appropriate or effective for your pet. It is not a substitute for a veterinary exam, and it does not replace the need for services provided by your veterinarian.

As far as what the woman told you I don't think she would have said
"Yes, we have a problem with use on pregnant dogs".
They are a company out to make money and if it got out ..well they would lose customers and money.
It's better for them to just say it appears to be safe..

I totaly agree with the oxy.My vet will try it 1 time and if no progress a section will be done.Some do not need oxy they calcium and a blood test is done for that and can be done in minutes. Some dogs do go 3 hours between pups it is a long time but I have had females do that but it was the norm for them. 4 hours is way to long to wait with shot after shot of oxy.All of their placentas probably seperated from it.And if no one is in the canal after a shot or two a section is needed.