Breeding Different coats & colours ?
 

i would like any and all info about anyone who has seen or done breeding of 2 diff. colours & coats of yorkies please. ex. blue & gold silk finer coat & black & tan cottony thick coats. what do the pupys look like ? how does their coat turn out? how can you tell what your dogs coat will be ? is one preferred over the other when it comes to selling/buying?

ok then any ideas thought appreciated..thanks.

Sorry I can't help you out. I would guess the puppies could turn out any way and you would probably have puppies of both types?? I think the silk coat is preferred as it is the standard for a yorkie. It would be interesting to see though.

breeding
 

Mixing coats will give you some pups with soft coats, some with silk coats.. it depends on what types of coats run in the line..genes are not like mixing paint. Add black to white and get grey...you can not take an incorrect gene and breed to a correct gene and change the gene...a gene is set in DNA..

Breeding "types" to appeal to a buyer is not how to breed ethically. Breed to the standard, you will get enough screw ups trying to do right, let alone planning to breed incorrectly...Mother Nature can be a heartless, cruel old bitty at times.

I don't see why you can't to be honest. I am no breeder but... there is a breeder on here who bred a red legged yorkie to I am assuming a silky coat yorkie. Their coat types were different and everyone seemed to be ok with it. I wouldn't think that would be any different.

i posted this to ask if anyone has done or seen it and what happened? aren't the dam genes dominant?

has anyone had 2 silks have a cottony coat or vice versa? i'm curious NOT
trying to cause a debate!

how can you tell what coat your dogs will have when they are puppys?
if a puppy has a thick wooly bully coat will it be a cottony or possibly turn into a silk? when do their colours change?

basically how do you know
when you buy a puppy what the coat will be silky or cottony and any way to predict colours?

how is one coat gene correct and another is not

I have a cotton coat yorkie and think breeders should only breed silky coat yorkies

breeding
 

I think I was confusing....a softer then ideal coat is quite common..you can breed to a silk coat to improve it if the breed potential is good quality in other aspects..pedigree, structure..etc etc...

Breeding to appeal to a buyers market is not one of the points of the standard. It is the responsibility of the ethcial breeder to breed according to the standard.. to try as best as possible to produce a correct Yorkie..then educate the buyer as to the correct type..and if they buyer wants other then correct, then let them go elsewhere.

In no way was everyone "okay" with the breeding of the Red leg..but that is for each breeder to decide..you can not legislate ethic's..it is a choice.

so a standard yorkie has a silky coat?
where do cottony coats come from? how can you tell if they are cottony? when does a puppy coat change? any way you can tell if they will stay dark coloured of lighten up?

breeding
 

I know you want answers to complex questions...the only way I learned was from mentors...from trusting reputable breeders to sell me silk coated potentials from good lines with the potentials to produce correct.
You look at the pedigree..parents and pup..and you can not buy too young. At about 4 to 5 months you can see a green or red eye flash..that has never been wrong for me...but there are shades of warm and cool..that can confuse. The greener the eye flash the silkier the coat..never failed me. Reds and ambers are soft.

ah ha ok thanks that makes a little more sense

If I may..the correct term is not standard Yorkie...the standard is a guide line to what is correct..it is a formula or blueprint for the breeder.
The standard states the coat should be glossy, fine and silk in texture...so that is ideal..but it does not mean you can never breed a softer then ideal coat to improve..IF the dog is otherwise good quality.

JMO...but I would not keep a soft coated stud...but I would keep a softer then ideal bitch to breed to a silk lined stud..

Many many years ago, as I have been told by very long time breeders, ( I am only 10 years experience very short time) cotton coats were much more common than today. The beliefs at that time was cotton coats would help keep colour. Red leg, although incorrect, was thought to do the same thing.
Fast forward a decade or two from those days, and now it is known many people ended up with light coloured soft coated Yorkies and red leg Yorkie pups pop up unexpectedly because they are back there somewhere in the pedigree.
Now we have many reputable show breeders that are selecting and breeding for silk coat and holding colour particularly in the males. And yes, you can breed correct coat colour and texture over generations and keep that coat and colour. You may have puppies that are going to throw back out from previous generations into a soft coat or even the occasional red leg. NOt a good reason to breed these except I will keep a soft coated nice quality bitch depending on the pedigree etc.
You can't tell on a young puppy whether or not that could be a cotton coat or silk until they are getting to be about 5-6 months of age. If you are buying for show/breeding, never buy anything much under 8 or 9 months.
For colour, you won't know either if that puppy will hold colour or not. If it is going light at 5 or 6 months likely it will be light as an adult. I have had pet puppies that I sold or ones bought elsewhere that I groomed that went light at more than 2 years of age.
My Matthew, his mother Jodi, and Tommy have all 3 held colour and I am sure they will do so as Matthew is 3 1/2 years now, Tommy is 4 years, Jodi is 7 years, been spayed and in apet home for about 2 years now but I groom her so know exactly how she is aging.
You will have a BETTER idea of what a puppy will be coat, colour, size at between 8 or 9 months and a year. You will have an even better idea once they are over a year of age what you really do have. I have even seem some that look like they are going light as juveniles but darken again. Some will hold some will go light again later.
Excellent Pedigree, Champion parents, are not for sure going to produce that next show dog. I wish it did work that way. Pets I have sold have the same pedigree, Ch parents as my best show dog but those sold for pet were that, nice quality pets but not for the show rings or the whelping box as their sibling(s) were.
Hope this helps.

thank you

Generally, a red legged Yorkie is usually introduced into the breeding program to bring back the true blue and gold colors when a line is getting too washed out (more silver than blue).

I only breed silk coated Yorkies because I want the best chance in producing silk coated Yorkies. Just guessing, I think if you breed a non silk coat to a silk coat the non-silk is more dominant and you would probably have a higher percentage of puppies with non-silk coat or at least soft silk coats. It really is hard to tell the coat as a puppy that's why I would want to purchase from two silk coated parents that have produced silk coated puppies. Just an observation, it seems like the nonsilk coats have more hair as puppies, fluffier and thicker.

I have nothing against nonsilks, it's just that grooming is so much more of a challenge. My silk coats require only about 2 minutes of grooming per day, whereas my soft coat requires about 15 - 20 minutes a day. For those that like a puppy cut the nonsilks actually look better because they have a bit of a curl to their hair, but I personally like my Yorkies the longer, the silkier, the better.

Does anyone have a picture of a red leg? I have never seen one.
Thanks,
Teri:animal-pa

<<Generally, a red legged Yorkie is usually introduced into the breeding program to bring back the true blue and gold colors when a line is getting too washed out (more silver than blue).>>
This is not true at all if you ask knowledgable long time show breeders, ie someone in it longer than 25 years.
I was having a problem with coats going light until I got Tommy who has a strong Durrer background. Betty Anne does not keep or have red leg Yorkies, any soft coats that might appear are sold for pet. The colour on Tommy is awesome AND the colour on his offspring is looking good so far. Yes I still get some that look like they may go light but not near as light as some of my previous ones. Many look like they are going to hold colour and are silk coated.
In conversing with Betty Anne and others with her years and experience, breed good colour silk and you will for the most part produce it. OF course, there will be light ones showing up, but decide what is in the best interest of the breed as to whether you will keep them in a breeding program.
NOW that I know that, I would be hard pressed to keep a light coated or soft coated male. A female maybe, depending on the pedigree and other factors. I would never consider keeping or using or getting a red leg.

someone on yt had pics of a red leg yorkie posted i believe

[QUOTE=Lorraine]<<Generally, a red legged Yorkie is usually introduced into the breeding program to bring back the true blue and gold colors when a line is getting too washed out (more silver than blue).>>

This is not true at all if you ask knowledgable long time show breeders, ie someone in it longer than 25 years.

Information obtained from http://dandugmore.netfirms.com/color.html by Joan Gordon - over 50 years in breeding and considered one of the most knowledgeable breeders and judges. About Joan Gordon:

Joan has been showing Yorkie's for 50 years this year. She orginally bought and finished 5. Finished 19 American Bred 54 imported and 168 homebred Champions. She has written two books and collected every piece of Yorkshire Terrier Memorabilia she could get her hands on from all over the world. A trip to her home in Glenview Illinois is a delightful experience and education in itself.

She has been crowned the "Godmother of all Yorkshire Terriers" and certainly the breed would not have been the same with out her loving hand.

Years ago Mrs. Annie Swan, of the Invincia Yorkies, told us to keep one in our breeding program. She said everyone kept a so called "Red". They occasionally appeared from silky coated parents. No one ever showed them, but since they had the ability to return color pattern to it's proper boundaries and the ability to darken the color of a lighter dog when bred to them, they were on occasion bred in. Bred to cottony or wooly texture they usually have little effect. Bred to silk texture they improve color. Bred together they usually produce themselves and occasionally a lovely colored silk dog - but this is the exception.

[QUOTE=Lacy's Mom]You are absolutely right that was the drill YEARS AGO. However, as the Yorkie has changed over the years and we do have great coat and colour available via good colour silk Yorkies in the gene pool that were not there years ago, the show breeders of today no longer go that route of keeping soft coats or red leg.
Years ago many Yorkies in the show ring were black and tan soft coated cobby Yorkies. Not what we see today at all most of the time.
There was another thread on this forum about red leg and this was brought up at that time as well as going into there not being a need for soft coat or red leg anymore.

red leg
 

A red leg used to be called a wire coat. It may have been a practive many years ago when soft coats were so hard to breed out and bring in a deep steel silk...times change in all areas of breeding and animal husbandary. The many breeders I talked with, Cher at Goldenray for one has said many times it is a practice of the past...such as close inbreeding..what was once a plus, is not a minus. Breeders used to give lepto and calcuim during gestation,

I have read several things in Joan and Anne's books that are not longer a common practice in 2006...I am in no way putting this foundation breeders down..but we no long do many things that were once acceptable...times change and so do breeding practices...

I didn't realize I had responded to such a controversial topic - was researching to find a pic for the original poster and came across where a breeder bred a red leg to a champion - received some ugly comments, but it looks like the outcome was beautiful to me and what it did years ago, apparently it can still do today.

Anyway, here's a link to a picture of a red legged (hope the breeder doesn't mind). http://yorkiepassion.com/hedy.htm

Pat, after I logged off,I realized I should have added comments similar to your last paragraph. The foundation breeders certainly did give us a legacy that the Yorkie of today was built upon and I do not in any way take anything away from them. But this is no longer the breeding practice of many show breeders as you also pointed out.

Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion. The outcome of this breeding will not really be known until these pups are at least closer to a year of age and more as they mature AND the real story will take a good 2 or 3 generations to know where it went and whether or not this was a good idea.
Then there is population genetics where it really takes some numbers of like breedings to lead towards a conclusion if indeed, one exists.
Personally, by my own preference, I would not consider a stud service or a pup from a female that I knew had red leg in the 5 generation pedigree.
My own opinion only and not intended to be a criticsm of anyone.

breeding
 

A friend of mine knew Ethel Munday very well., well respected UK foundation breeder..Ethel used to fast her Yorkies on Sunday...they got barley water and nothing else. She was big on resting the "gut" as she said.
There used to be lots of close inbreeding...father/daughter was in so many peds...there was a need back then to set type..but rarely needed now...a good YT mag article said inbreeding is a thing of the past and can be deterimental to a breeding program.

All breeders must decide for themselves...