Toplines
 

TOPLINES
how in important are toplines in your breeding program...?????

I for one will never breed in a bad topline...even if I feel that is the only bad trait!

Toplines reflect the overall soundness and appearance of the well bred dog. If you have a poor topline many times its a prelude to other issues such as bad stifles, high or low shoulders or poor movement!!!

whats acceptable to you?????

A wise woman told me to choose the faults you can live with...and improve upon. A bad topline is not one I can live with.

Toplines are a must!! Some traits we can improve but you must start with the best basics..

I am a fanatic for TLs too. But I have dilemma. Foster is perfect in EVERYWAY (to me anyway). Health, silk coat, tempermant, face, knees, bite, everythign but his TL is a little off (high in the rear to be exact). What would you do in this case and why? I am looking for opinions here folks. Just looking for feedback from others.
I am going to enter him in some shows and work on my handling better (I suck) if he turns out not to be finishable I will use him in my breeding program because ALL other atributes are there.

Thanks,
Irene

Oh to add. Foster has a background of nice TLs. And at 8wks he was dead level.

A bad topline is an automatic disqualifyer in my program. I wouldn't waste my time regardless of other attributes. Unless VERY lucky, reputable breeders take hits all the time, some very expensive, all time consuming at least.

Maybe this is gonna be a lesson I'll have to learn myself. But IMO sound knees are harder to come by. That's why I will try him out.

Thanks.

Everything in moderation-
 

I feel a correct top line is a MUST as well for a dog involved in a breeding program. HOWEVER, there is an exception to every rule. Now, if you take into consideration that the breeding dog in question is correct to standard in every other way and the topline is off due to something OTHER than say a roached back, then I would look at him/her gentically. Find out if this off topline seems to be something that might be dominate (many others have it in his lineage-INCLUDING progeny) or is might it be recessive? If recessive then I would certainly encourage any progeny go into responsible show homes and contact is kept to keep track of what THAT dog is producing-if anything- and/or those pups go to spay/neuter homes and a money back incentive is given. Just so you can still produce w/ the dog in question, but you're taking all procautions to still find out what your dog can/will produce when bred to certain lines yet still keep the progeny in check from reproducing themselves as needed. There are way too many Yorkies out there as it is and I think we're going the way of the AKC German Shepherd in this breed! That is to say that they're being mass produced and everyone has their own opinion of what a Yorkie's phenotype should be. I say stick w/ our standard and watch those frames! If we bred only the most perfect Yorkies in every way, we would wind up w/ a closed genetic program. Dogs and bitches w/ minor faults MUST be bred at some point, BUT those dogs should only be bred w/ someone that can announce those faults comfortably and breed accordingly and know what is dominate and what is recessive and keep track of any and all progeny to ensure (to one's best ability) that "they" are not reproducing...or if they are, the breeder passes on the knowledge of what to breed to and what not to and help them in the right direction of maintaining our breed standard as best we can.
jm2c.
ps I think frame is where it's at! That's the shocks/struts and body of a car-if that's off, everything will fall apart much sooner than it should! Especially w/ loads of wear and tear- and how many of us have inactive Yorkies? That's what I thought! *grin* Busy bodies need a frame that can hold up! ;)

One more point
 

As any veternarian that is worth his weight in salt or has studied nutrition and he'll tell you that nutrition is the not the backbone-but close to the overall factor of structure-alone side genetics.
So, if the topline is SLIGHTLY off-nothing debilitating or something that is way off...I'm sure this group knows what I mean. Then one must look to the lineage-including any progeny (I think progeny are looked over wayyy too often. These are the products of the very breeding programs in question!) and see what is/is not consistent. And if you're ever confused, speak to a breeder that has a lot of experience and knowledge.
Just remember that nutrition may be playing a factor-bone growth-to your dogs off topline. Go back to his lineage and see. That's not a tell all, but it's a good place to start!
Some of the BEST producers in the breed (from back in the day) that has brought us in the ring to where we are today had off toplines or imperfect coats.
jm2c

I am so taking all of this in. I have been evaluating what his father has produced as well as what's behind him on his mother's side. It's weird because sometimes he looks worse than others. I've had handlers at my class tell me he's not bad as I make it sound, it bothers me that he's not perfect. I am working with my mentors and my vet. I am willing to eliminate him if neccessary down the line. But this is something I want to try out and learn from. Make sense?
I know it's me and my lack of handling skills. He pushes his front feet out to brace himself when on the table which tends to lift his rear higher. But when he's in his natural state it's ever so slight or not at all. Also the handlers at class have stacked him and he looks perfect. Oh, this is so stressful..lolololol. His tail set is nice and at a 45 degree angle, not gay. He moves nice too. Just looking to brainstrom.

Thanks for your feedback.

Absolutely. I would take him at his natural state more so that you stacking him. As you said, you're considered a novice handler and maybe you're stacking him inappropriately- my recc. would be to have a professional handler stack him for you on a table so you can take photos! Then critisize your "eye" from there. It's FABULOUS that you're this nit picky! Bravo, we need more people out there like you w/ this breed especially.
How old did you say he is? My male had a growth spirt of almost half an inch at age three and it came from his pasterns! Now, this is uncommon, but does occur. Is it possible that he's still growing? An x-ray of the pasterns from your vet will be the tell all if so-it's one of the best locations to "check in" on a dog's growth plates.

a great topline is a must for me....

i like a natural state to see a topline of the dog as well as stacked to assess.

here's an example of a nice top line in a young 4 1/2 month old puppy just taken today...in a natural stance

this little gal is top notch in my book

Yorkiemom1970- Absolutely! How tall is that bitch at the wither already?
Gorgeous topline...no roaching or anything. Seems quite proportional (can't see the head piece), where is she from?

:thumbup:

Irene I was told last fall by a very wise show breeder that toplines can go on and off sometimes until they are 1 year to 1 1/2 years old.. That being said if they are sometimes high in the rear that they may level out.. You might want to ask Cher..

I will not breed a bad topline into my dogs, once you breed it in you will probably never get it out..

Rea has a beautiful natural topline! She free stacks quite well!~ Very promising indeed..