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In reading your comment, I felt as if your claim was that the only possible motivations for breeders and breeding is either EGO or MONEY. Again, this is what I took it to mean. Seeing as I am a breeder, I took this to be somewhat, no very, insulting and felt obliged to defend myself. As YOU stated, you are not a breeder--as someone who does breed, I felt I would take the time to let you know, this is not the motivation of everyone, at least not me. Again, this was MY TAKE on your comments, if I have misunderstood, please feel free to explain further. Boom-Boom tree anyone? |
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How about breeding for desirable, attractive faults? Aren't tri-colored, parti and chocolate all considered faults ? As in not maintaining the standard? I met a few breeders when I was searching and while they still show their dogs and maintain the standard on most issues, some are trying to breed more cobby dogs and some are trying for more of a babydoll face. They consider these traits desirable and they market them. How do you see this as being different from breeding for desirable colors that are not the standard? |
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Hahaha..BUSTED!!..lolol. I know, I am so extreme in my beliefs at times. Seriously I personally feel there is a sterotype that goes with mentioning those 'descriptive terms'. Are all those that say Babydoll greasy evil puppymillers? Probably not, but most are and that's a fact. Look at puppypfind. That is a place where most of the high volume commercial breeding facilities post ads (I'm sure there are other places). There are also good hearted honest breeders that only want the best for their babies that post on there (myself included). But I feel when majoirty rules you need to make people aware. I do take back my originial statement that ALL that use that description are Millers..that is simply not true but the high majority do. I have vowed to not use those specific words. The dictionary and Thesauraus have provided me with other alternatives. I can be a perfectionist sometimes, but I persoanlly think that breeders should only breed if they are willing to do everything possible to make sure their foundation is healthy and sound, and within the standard. **These are just my opinions, not speaking of anyone in particular.** |
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non show breeders are not ALL bad...they genuinely care about the animals, but lets face it, they are not working as hard as they do to produce these puppies and risking the lives of their females just to break even or altruistically to allow everyone the joy of owning a yorkie. Sure, there are some bad breeders out there but they are not the norm thank goodness. Sure there are some who will attempt to capitalize on the breed's popularity and make a quick buck but those people will very quickly learn that is is not an easy thing to do and they won't last long. Show Breeders she said There is also nothing bad about breeding to make money...I mean why would you risk the lives of your females if not to hope to make a profit.....to "better the breed"? I think not...even "show breeders" expect to make some money ...otherwise why do it...ego? Maybe for some, but not the majority, And if I had a show dog man what and EGO I have.. My head would be so big ..I wouldn't be able to get through the door... :lol tears |
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Oh Ok .. I love the fact your looking for alternative wording BUT Irene, your not going to make us learn new words are you... :lol tears I'm getting to old to learn new words NOW.. :D :lol tears :lol tears :lol tears |
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Ok Class...do I have your attention..???? :eyetearss :eyetearss :eyetearss |
You have MINE ... :D |
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But yes, I agree with you, if I had a show dog, I would have a big ego too. ;) |
When I was searching for my yorkie, I found quite a few adds that had these words in describing their pups. I did answer a few of them and from what I seen, the cobby body meant short legged compact body. Apple head meant rounder shaped head. Baby doll face meant, forhead rounder with shorter snout and round eyes. I also noticed that breeders who used these phrases where asking outrages prices for their puppies. They are the cutest looking puppies. (at least I think so) I don't really think it is necessary to stay clear of these types of adds if you are willing to pay big $$$$. If people are willing to spend this kind of money on something they really want then breeder and proud new owner are happy. To me they are just using the words people can relate to. I usually stay clear from this topic. I know it's old and been said and drug to the ground and stomped on repeatedly. But teacup, baby face or any other words some may use does not bother me in the least bit. As long as I got what I wanted and he/she is healthy and comes with an health guarantee, docs. from vet, shot record, and lastly the thumb up from my vet. Then I'm happy!!! I know there is no such thing but I just don't get all weirded out just because someone calls Gus a teacup. He is what he is and if someone wants to use the word teacup to state the obvious,,,, tiny and all so darn cute, then so be it. |
I think as a soon to be buyer of a Yorkie, and I contacted breeder via the internet and by phone...I think that I would want them to describe the dog to me as Healthy, parent have been tested for all known diseases, they are or will be UTD on their shot..You can come in to look at them, but they are inlined with the breed standard... I don't want to here, he has a tiny button nose on his baby doll face, with a perfact apple shaped head, and a cobb salad body...I am buying a dog people, not a forrest animal, and I am not buying a salad topped with fruit... I guess what I am saying is that I want a breeder to be very honest with me, and not try to sell me a rat with long hair...trust I have came across a few who would try! Also, tried to sell me the Taj Mahal, and the Brooklyn bridge.. |
I guess what bothers me about using the terms or marketing ploys is the 'breeders' really don't know much about the breed or if they do the don't discuss or educate the interested parties (now this is from my experience when I looked for Yorkies myself). That's where the sterotype comes into play for me anyway. They want to sell something and sell it fast. Again, they and all are in reference to the breeders I personally spoken to that HAVE used those terms in advertising one way or another. Now, this was over 5 years ago, but I highly doubt things changed much for the better. I think it's great that you posted your views Monica. They are very unbiased. |
By definition, this is what AKC says about the standard with the head...followed by MY OPINIONS... Head Small and rather flat on top, the skull not too prominent or round, the muzzle not too long, with the bite neither undershot nor overshot and teeth sound. Either scissors bite or level bite is acceptable. The nose is black. Eyes are medium in size and not too prominent; dark in color and sparkling with a sharp, intelligent expression. Eye rims are dark. Ears are small, V-shaped, carried erect and set not too far apart. So, you don't have a website and are selling pups. They call and ask you if the pups have a baby doll face...what do you tell them? "WELL, THE MUZZLE IS NOT TOO LONG". They ask you, well, what does that mean? "WELL, JUST AS AKC STANDARD STATES...THE MUZZLE IS NOT TOO LONG". Sorry, but I think the seller is going to look like someone that doesn't know what they are doing or talking about. The public uses these terms. Here's what it says on the body... Body Well proportioned and very compact. The back is rather short, the back line level, with height at shoulder the same as at the rump. Caller wants to know if they are cobby bodied. Breeder states that the dog has a compact body. Caller states..."OH, IS THAT A COBBY BODY?" Seller states, no, a compact body. Should buyer know that they are talking about the same thing? Sure, but a lot of these buyers may not know the difference. Speaking with other breeders, I've heard baby doll face or a short button nose....and will leave it at that. |
I wouldn't want to hear anything other then "They look like a true Yorkshire Terrier should" from a breeder. Then that would tell me that they will be what I am looking for. If someone doesn't know what the true standard looks like or doesn't want that, then they should buy something else :rolleyes: |
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Pet Hell Kimberley, You're right...I didn't do my research before buying my Yorkie. I knew I wanted one, and that was it. I went to the petstore, and bought her. I am proud of myself for doing TONS of research now. I think, better late than never. :rolleyes: And I won't go to those Pet Hell Stores anymore. Below is the link I got my puppy from. Looks like a decent enough site for uneducated buyer...that's what I thought. www.shakeapaw.net Nicole<----------getting more educated by the minute because she is now ADDICTED to yorkietalk.com!!! :animal36 |
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My opinions to Kimberley's As a breeder that puts my all into my breeding program, I do not 'sell myself' by using the 'language'. To the contrary, I need to be sold on the persons interested in a puppy of mine. That may sound harsh but it's how I prefer to place my puppies; with someone that has some knowledge and has done some research. Does that limit the people that can buy my puppies? Probably, but that's not important to me. I know what I feel comfortable with and I will not compromise that for the sale of a puppy. Kimberley, I hope no offense was taken. I was not saying that's what you meant or that you were talking directly to me. But I saw an opportunity to say my "fifty cents"..lololol..so I did. |
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I did tons of research but didn't realize all Yorkies don't look the same or that there are breeders actually trying to make them look different than standard. I knew some were better looking :eek: and I knew finding a good breeder was going to take time. The first time I heard the babydoll face term a breeder was explaining that the bd face one was more $$$. I asked her what that meant and she said they look like they ran into a wall. hmmm. that's a good thing right? Yes, they are cute. (I almost bought one) All Yorkies are cute. All puppies are cute. Millions of cute dogs out there, purebred, mutts and designer pups. But who do you want to buy from? Everyone just needs to set their own "standards" whether a breeder or a buyer. Do business with people you respect. Buy from breeders that have programs you want to support. I am relieved I ended up buying from a long time breeder who is extremely cranky about the standard. No surprises. My pup is just what I imagined when I didn't even know there were other versions out there. I am not judging, not saying my dog is best. Just saying I am not disappointed she looks like the Yorkies in the books :D |
Monica~ I think Gus is one of the cutest looking yorkies on YT!! I love his look ...I know, I know, they are ALL adorable, lol, but certain ones just get me and he is one!!!! Nicole~ I can tell that you are doing your research just from this thread alone and you got a baby to cherish and maybe you will get another one day and it may be different, but you will love them the same just as we do our children. They are all different and unique and have different things to offer. Bamafan~ This is not a challenge and I ask with the utmost respect and with no intention of offending, but I hope you will understand our request to share with us your experience as a yorkie breeder (how many years, litters, breeding dogs, etc) and what your motivation for breeding is? In fact, I agree with Irene that it would be nice to have a registry of sorts for the members here who are breeders where they give their stats and their breeding philosophies. I think it is important when one holds oneself out to be an expert on a subject for those who read the opinions of the experts to know the backgrounds and experience of those experts. I mean I would tend to accept the advice and opinions of a breeder with 20 or 30 years of experience breeding yorkies over a different opinion of one who had only been breeding for 4 or 5 years for example. It only makes sense. On the other hand, I would also give more weight to the opinions of a new breeder who used a reproductive specialist in her program and kept her dogs in her home as opposed to in crates or cages, etc. over a show breeder with 15 years experience with dogs in crates in another building who are not family members but show pieces not allowed to be real dogs...if you know what I am saying. |
Here is Irene's thread about a breeder Registry http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26110 Maybe a breeder could start a thread in this section with categories like Years breeding Yorkies Number of litters per year Club affiliations website Breeding philosophies Raised in the home or out Not breeding under 4 or 5 lb females Breeding for the standard or for another "looK" Price range Buyer Qualifications required Contract or not Health guarantee Etc |
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Nicole, Don't you ever feel bad or guilty of your decision. You need to take your experience and move forward. Know you recognize the difference you know better for next time ( you can't have just one) and you can pass the Yorkie 'Smarts' on to others. Love your little baby Fidgette to the fullest and put all this stuff in your memorybank! :D |
Shelby'sMom~ I think your story is one of the best as far as a first time yorkie buyer really doing her homework!!! I hope it is okay for me to tell the story.... We met during our respective searches for our babies and neither of us bought from the breeder where we met.....we both had a bad experience there and knew she was NOT who we wanted to business with even though she was a Show breeder. I was so impressed with your resolve and the fact that you did not buy on impulse as many would have....I already had my Hefner at home so I could resist the temptation better than you who were puppiless at the time. I respect you so much. Then we met again at the Yorkie Specialty show in Los Angeles and we met some of the same people that day and you finally connected with Shelby's breeder, also a show breeder. In between those two meetings we had also visited another show breeder's "kennel" ( at separate times and unbeknownst to the other) and were both appalled at the conditions. I met a breeder at the show that I had talked to on the phone and who was a friend of one of the show breeders but who bred "for" the babydoll face. She didn't have any litters but a friends of hers that was her mentor did and she put me in touch with her and I found my Ava. I tell this story because we took similar paths and dealt with similar breeders but both ended up purchasing different dogs from different types of breeders but both were very reputable if not set in their own individual ways of doing things!! LOL....you know what I mean. There are no perfect breeders any more than there are perfect yorkies, but if you do your research and take your time you will have a better chance of not being disappointed or "surprised". |
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Gotcha! :thumbup: |
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Anyway, to answer your questions: Years breeding Yorkies-I started working with a breeder of Shih Tzu's in 2000 who has been breeding for over 20 years. She also had a Yorkie, not bred, pet only that I fell in love with. In 2002, myself and my father began researching Yorkies an working with a 15+ year experienced breeder who is also a close family friend, who is also who my father got Cody, our sire, from. We worked both with them and with our vet to learn about the breed, what to expect, how to select a dog, etc. They were also beneficial in helping us to learn about desired genetic traits, which was more like a refresher course for myself (and my father) as I attended medical school and studied a great deal in cellular biology, including genetic engineering. Once we had Cody and Trixie, we continued to work with our vet, the Shih-Tzu breeder, Cody's breeder and Trixie's breeder and another Yorkie breeder with whom we met through our vet, and eventually another breeder in North Alabama from whom we eventually got Abby, my sister's dog. Number of litters per year-this is easy...1. Trixie is my only dog. I have no desire to have or breed any dog that cannot be my 'pet' first. I don't think it is a bad thing, it's just not what is best for me, nor do I desire to show. Club affiliations-unfortunately, there are no local YTCA affiliations in my area, at least not that I am aware of. If there were, we would have considered having AKC reg dogs more rather than CKC reg. But again, we looked for a desireable dog, not a desireable piece of paper, as we had no intention of showing. One breeder we worked with was originally from Florida and was affiliated w/ the Central Fla YTC...Cody's breeder--he is both AKC and CKC reg. website-don't have one...is there any reason why I should that I am not aware of...is there something specific that you feel would be on a website that I can tell you about? Breeding philosophies-not really sure what you mean, I would be happy to elaborate here if you can be a little more specific Raised in the home or out-in the home, again, Trixie is my only dog and only goes out when she has to potty as we have an abundance of wildlife in the area...including Hawks! Not breeding under 4 or 5 lb females-would not breed under 5 lbs because of the high risk of health problems-Trixie is 6 3/4 lbs, Cody is 5 1/2 and Abby is 5 lbs, but still growing Breeding for the standard or for another "looK"--our dogs to meet the standard for the breed, yet, if their look was 'undesirable,' which I suppose is a matter of opinion, we would not breed them Price range-we asked $1000.00 for our females and $800.00 for our males. That is slightly above the 'norm' here. We hoped that if we weren't the lowest around, that would discourage 'impulse buyers' and potential 'millers.' Luckily, all of the owners were referred to us, 2 by a friend, 1 is a friend, and 1 by our vet. Once we learned more about them as individuals, we told them our 'real price,' which was lower. Buyer Qualifications required-this differs on a case by case basis. Not to be biased, but if anyone had shown up in a clunker and look as if they had not had a bath in weeks, they would have gone home empty handed. All owners were very knowledgeable about the breed-3 of the 4 had previously owned Yorkies. We'd said we would ask to see their home and visit with their pup to see how he would adjust, but because of the way we met them this time, we did not do such. We already knew them. We require that they be kept indoors...again because of the wildlife and we state that we will randomly contact their vets to ensure the dogs are getting proper routine care. It states in our sales agreement that if at any time they fail to do so, they will have to surrender the dog back to us. Anything specific here I could elaborate on. Contract or not-yes, what specifically do you want to know about it? Health guarantee-yes, limited to what can be classified as a genetically inherited disorder, not injury, neglect etc. We have also had the parents thouroughly screened and do so annually as well as complete vet records for the grand dam and sire and provide copies of such to the owners I think that covers everything, although brief. I would be happy to elaborate on any of this if you would like for me to, just let me know. True, Trixie had as close to a textbook and perfect delivery and pregnancy as you can have, which I realize is not always the case. We had no outrageous out-of-pocket expenses for emergencies or unforseen costs, so yeah, we do have some profit, but not much, to show for it. It's sitting in a separate savings accout where it will remain until 1) we can be sure there will be no complications with the pups and 2) it is time to breed again, which who knows where we will be in a year...may not want to do it again at that point. We had 4 healthy pups, no stillborns and no runt and all survived and are in perfect health. Apparently, I prepared myself correctly? I would like to think I did something right. As far as my motivation, I can assure you that it is not ego, nor is it for profit. If you have ever looked at pups that you bred and they are healthy, they go to good homes, you have the honor of knowing that it was because of YOUR efforts, you promoted good breed standards and you kept 4 people away from a puppy mill, that is the biggest reward and motivation of all. I think I have answered all of your questions. Please let me know if I have missed anything or if there is anything I can elaborate on. Again, I don't claim to be an expert, but if you look back over my past replys, I don't think you will find a case where I have given "bad advice" nor do I make a habit out of posting if I don't think I am knowledgeable about what I say. If I have, please let me know and I will be more than happy to retract the statement. |
Thank you for the background info....I guess I had forgotten about our previous discussion because I honestly did not know how many litters you had had. Sorry....I should have searched the threads ........ I really don't even remember you from before. Congratulations on your experience with your Trixie! I love to hear about breeding experineces with no complications. There is so much less stress. So your motivation for breeding is not money but rather the satisfaction that you raised four healthy puppies and you kept four people from buying from a puppymill? That is quite admirable and I mean that sincerely. When I look at my girls and think about anything happening to them, it makes me ill on the spot. I cannot even bring myself to have them spayed because I am so afraid of the anesthesia. I was a total basket case when Ava had her eye ulcer. When you were first doing your research and deciding to breed your pet was this always your motivation? I mean did you and your father actually sit down and say what your reason for breeding would be? I have struggled with this question for some time now and I really appreciate your sharing your experience and how you made the decision to breed. |
SoCal-thank you for your kind comments. And FYI, I was formerly an Opthalmic Tech and saw many the corneal ulcer...yes, they are HORRIBLE and you have my deepest sympathies for that one! Nasty scarring they tend to leave behind as well. When we got our dogs, our motivation was to get one with a bloodline that we would breed if we decided to, but did not get them at first with the sole intention of breeding them. When working with the Shih-Tzu breeder, she sold her pups for 300-400 and honestly would do well to break even. But her dogs were her life. She is retired, has grown kids and all her motivations are for her doggies. She seemed so fulfilled...it was a great feeling. As I said, my father got Cody from a breeder we worked with, we didn't have much of a problem getting him. On the contrary, when we looked for Trixie, we ran accross puppy mill after puppy mill...horrendous conditions. Ultimately, thinking back on that, when it came down to our decision: OK, are we going to breed or not? it sat with me that we could raise 'good' dogs rather than what we've seen. I honestly didn't know if I had an intention on breeding her a second time until I got to see the reactions of those who took her pups home. It has been the most gratifying experience, next to having my own child. One of the new owners told me how adamate he'd been about finding a breeder that wasn't a puppy mill and he was so grateful our vet had mentioned us to him. He said, "you are so organized with everything and you have really put my mind at ease with my decision to get this puppy." After all the hard work, how great a thing is THAT to hear!?!" :thumbup: |
Bama :thumbup: :thumbup: |
BamaFan: What great posts from you. I feel you went way out of your way to discuss things that necessarily didn't need to be said but you were upfront and totally sincere, in my opinion. Thanks for being a great breeder and a great forum member. |
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