Just Curious About Breeding
 

I have a friend that is interested in breeding her 4 pound boy with a 10 pound girl. I don't know the first thing about breeding so I really don't have much info to offer her except not to do it at all! Her mother has bred a few litter of poodles, so I guess she feels confident in the whole whelping.

The dogs are all up to date with all vaccinations, and are both healthy, but they have not been tested for genetic issues. With the female being a big size that doesn't automatically mean that there won't be complications or that the pups won't grow to be as large as the female right? (She's wanting yorkies around 5-7 pounds from this)

She's never been interested in joining this forum so I thought maybe getting informative information specifically for her situation could help her to really think twice about breeding the two. I've contemplated writing this out of fear of comments I would receive, so in her defense I'm just telling you that she is ignorant to all of the complications that could occur and all that goes into getting a good pair to breed as I was before I found this forum. She is not a bad, selfish or greedy person.

I NEVER knew that only breeders should breed. I NEVER heard of backyard breeders. I heard of hobby breeders, but didn't know that they are looked upon as Greeders. I NEVER knew that breeding your dog to have a litter to give to your close friends and family was considered a bad thing. When I first got Ladybug, my future goal was to breed her to give my family yorkies that they could afford being that they were only wanting pets and not show dogs. But joining this forum really educated me on how serious a matter breeding is and I have since changed my mind about it. I plan on showing this thread to her, so I would appreciate your informative comments to help her see what goes in to breeding. Thanks !

bump...bump...bump!

If she has never been interested in joining this forum, she wont listen to anything people that KNOW what they are doing, have to say. All the time it takes to TRY to explane the excellent questions YOU have asked and she needs to be aware of, take up valuable time....breeders certainly dont mind mentoring people but it is difficult to sit and spend our VALUABLE time trying to explain this crap shoot called breeding, to people that are not interested in learning.

I apologize, I guess I didn't think about wasting peoples time by asking these questions. My friend has never been a computer person, in fact she doesn't even own a computer, but I guess I will try and help her the best I can. Thank you for your time though.

Just because the male is smaller it means nothing this is a myth.

Females actually pelvis size is more important than weight.

No dog under 5 pounds should ever be bred-ask any vet.

No health testing-asking for trouble!

Beyond health testing a health gene test should be done now what if there are blue born pups?

Does she know a 12 generation pedigree on these dogs and the health of the lines-she could end up with a litter of seriously 6 neurologically or otherwise genetically (CT, LP, hernias, etc etc) pups and then what?

These tests are cheap!

No excuse for not doing them let alone generally making sure these dogs are breeding quality.

She should seek a mentor, really.

She is taking on risking her females life and risking creating genetically ill pups.


I don't think NO ONE should breed, but there is a minimum of care and precautions that should be taken, and what I listed isn't even the half of it.

If you friend does all that and it's all fine and figures out what else she needs to learn from pregnancy care, to whelping, to creating a puppy contract and health guarantee, spay neuter for the pups, how to pass on AKC registration an register a litter, then awesome.

I just can't understand why so many people throw caution to the wind, and put the horse before the cart.

Being naive is one thing, ignoring common sense is another.

Hope your friend makes the right choices based on the the process and information.

Please don't give up and don't feel bad for asking questions, even if you are asking for your friend. You clearly care about the breed and want to help your friend understand that breeding is not something you just wake up one day and decide you want to do. I applaud your efforts and really wish I had answers for you (I'm still fairly new). I will say please don't feel like you are waisting people's time by asking questions, because how will any of us learn anything if we never ask questions? Everyone has to start somewhere. Again thank you for taking the time to try and educate your friend. I hope it helps.

I can honestly say that it is heartbreaking to watch your baby girl go through labor, worrying about her the entire time and then have the puppy not make it.

It would have been worse had my girl not made it.

I learned my lesson and my dogs are getting fixed. Anything can go wrong, and to me, its not worth it.

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. If I hand't stumbled upon this forum and read everything about breeding, I can assure you I would be exactly where my friend is right now. I would be trying to find a male to breed my girl with. I love this site and all of the wonderful information I have learned from it. I don't post certain questions as often as I would like because of the responses I sometimes see here. I do have many questions and I do want to learn as much as I can about the yorkie breed. I hope this information will not fall on deaf ears. I will definitely let you know how she responds.

Thank you concretegurl. This is just what I needed, a list of things to consider BEFORE breeding. I think at this point just from our conversations, she just does't know what all goes into breeding. I will show her these things here and hopefully this will help her to see that it isn't as easy as just putting two dogs together. I do really appreciate the information you've provided.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...t-breeder.html

The library has some excellent articles about considerations prior to breeding

I have posted a link above.

The mother controls the size of the pups. So given the mom's weight is not from obesity, then unless she comes from a long line of smaller Yorkies, this potential breeder should not count on small adults.

Pelvic structure is very important in free whelping. A vet should be able to tell if this female has a "good" chance of free whelping. And I would find a reproduction vet to go to.

There are also many threads on here, where I and others have elaborated on the pre breeding tests. And unless you have them done at show clinics where the cost is pretty reasonable the price can easily add up to over $500. Also the male has to be tested for the same things as the female.

I think many folks just think after all dogs are just animals and animals in the wild give birth all the time. Well true, but consider dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years, and where natural selection does still operate in the wild; not so when humans make the decisions regarding breeding. Also true there is a very high incident rate of puppy and dam mortality in the wild. Puppies born with less than ideal structure or with genetic defaults usually will not in the wild survive long enough to mate.

Quite frankly; there is no short or inexpensive way to breed healthy and good representatives of the breed.

For me I just can't see why one would put their female at risk, and the resultant costs both financial and emotional that comes with raising a litter of puppies.

Another thing to really consider is the $$$ breeding costs.

[QUOTE=gemy;4033355]http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...t-breeder.html

The library has some excellent articles about considerations prior to breeding

I have posted a link above.

This was an eye opening article! Absolutely anything can happen before during and after breeding. I think this is excellent to share with her. I'm curious to see her reaction after reading all of these different scenarios. Thanks!

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
People often think there is nothing to this...dogs breed, female gets pregnant, puppies are born, little family all does great, babies are sold to new homes, and a great time was had by all! Unfortunately, it does NOT always work out that way.....and Yorkies, as are most toy breeds, are notorious about having whelping issues. You said it perfectly....heart felt words, from first hand experience, a really tough lesson to live through. Thank goodness you didnt loose your girl, which quite often, DOES happen! I would hope the OP can manage to convience her friend to TRY to learn from the YT people, that probably know more about this than she does! It is a kind thing the OP does, but if her friend wont even go to a forum where she can read posts....doesnt even have to write anything, JUST READ!!!.....I dont think she will learn anything from the OP. I am sorry you lost your puppy....but I am so thankful momma survived....it could have been so much worse for you.

(1) If they have Not been tested for "genetic issues" then she doesn't truly know if they are healthy! If she doesn't know of the health issues in the lines she is breeding, then "healthy" is a very narrow term of limited use in reference to her breeding pair.

(2) For me I refer to myself as a Hobby Breeder. I am also a Show breeder. I never thought Hobby Breeder equated to a "greeder". I'm not sure how you formed this opinion. Perhaps you can share how you formed this opinion. Is there some authoratative body out there, that you have read, that linked a Hobby Breeder to a "greeder"?

[quote=My Ladybug;4034138]I really do hope your friend listens to you....you can really end up broken hearted with credit cards maxed out, trying to deliver a female that has a baby sideways and cant do it on her own. If she does not recognize when she needs to go for help, she can loose her momma as well as the entire litter. Even if she survives the c-section, she can throw a clot post op and die. When you breed your female, you need to ask yourself, is this female soooo good that I want to risk HER life to try to get babies from her that may or may not be any where as good as she is? And you have to have the money to back it up, in case she does get into trouble.....or the babies need intensive care....you are looking at anywhere from $3000.00 up to probably close to $8000.00, depending how sick everyone, and how aggressive you are trying to save them.

There is a breeder I know who afyer c-section lost her dam who has a litter of believe it 6, she spent 28k total barely keeping the pups alive.

At 2k a peice as AKC champion pups well do the math, not to mention she lost her dam.

Very well within the realm of reality! It cost me over $20,000.00 saving 5 babies from parvo that was brought into my home on the feet/clothes of people that I allowed to "come see the babies and pick one out". People just are not used to seeing these huge sums of money going out for vet bills, to save a momma or her litter....but it is something breeders do, or face the real possibility of having to do, with every breeding! (I have a real difficult time with accepting the term "greeders" that is often thrown at hobby breeders.....totally NOT fair!! Especially when most people looking for the perfect puppy, expect to get one for $300.00 -$500.00!!!)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Pure idiocy on the buying publics' part!

If you want to spend only this,then rescue, buy from a shelter. You know the thing is there are very good reasons why a purebred dog should be expensive!

Have you ever actually done the math Yorkie mom, on how much this has cost you so far? How far in the red you would be, if this was actually a "business"? I've been too afaird too:eek: Hubby figures by now, we could have taken at least 3 around the world vacations!

BTW what happens in the States with the IRS? Can you offset your hobby business losses against your personal taxable income? We can, but for only so long - I think 6yrs or so.

[

(2) For me I refer to myself as a Hobby Breeder. I am also a Show breeder. I never thought Hobby Breeder equated to a "greeder". I'm not sure how you formed this opinion. Perhaps you can share how you formed this opinion. Is there some authoratative body out there, that you have read, that linked a Hobby Breeder to a "greeder"?[/QUOTE]

Forgive me! I read some time ago on this forum someone responding to a "Hobby Breeder" as being a Greeder, maybe it was the situation in which they were going about it, I'm not sure. However, I looked at a Hobby Breeder as someone that doesn't breed for a living, but from time to time. I don't know if that's wrong too. I don't mean to offend anyone by what I've written, so please know that is not my intentions at all.

[quote=Yorkiemom1;4035048]
Thank you Yorkiemom1. I appreciate you taking the time to give your input.......For my friend money has never been an issue, she is very well off financially and would not have a problem spending it on her babies.The financial issue didn't seemed to be a problem but reading her the information so far HAS made her decide to do a little more research. Again she isn't computer savy so she is going to the library to get books on the ins and outs of breeding, as well as talk with the breeder she purchased her boy from. Has she changed her mind completely??? Honestly, I can't say she has, but reading some of these situations that could possibly happen to her babies kind of freaked her out. She was shocked to see so many things that could go wrong, but she has actually witnessed her mom's poodle giving birth without any issues so I gather that being the reason she feels somewhat capable of handling it. I will try and keep everyone posted on what her future plans will be. If I continue to get input, I will continue to pass it on to her. Thank you again for your time.

Personally I used the term greeder for anyobe who I can determine is breeding for profit only and furthermore they deny the standard costs of veterinary care, do not health test etc, just a BYB with a lot if dogs pumping out litter as a side income for themselves.

Health testing isn't that expensive actually, OFA and chic cerf are, but basic health screenings and knowing the line genetics is so cheap compared to the costs of a mishap, or parvo like Yorkimom went through....a greeder would not hace spent that they'd have considered the sale of those pups lost income and well hopefully dumped the litter at rescue, many put them down some themselves to ecen cut the cvet euthanasian cost.

FYI for breeders health gene testing for colors is only a couple hundred at most too so off standard breeders even do this.


The vreeder I was refering to previously that 2kprice was for limited registration pet only quality pups.

To my mind basic screenings are those that are required by the breed club and beyond that as well. HD AND ED OFA' d xrays and cost to post results were about $250 which included a nominal fee to have them evaluated by OFA and posted. CERF testing for PRA and cataracts is $15 to post and at a show sponsored health clinic about $60 to do. Doing private PRA testing with a board certified opthamologist is about $180 here in TO. BAT testing is relatively cheap I think about $60. Thyroid testing I paid about $150.
Heart Doppler testing about $100 or so dollars. Brucellosis testing is $250 here. Basic full blood screen $100. I don't do BAER as my breeds do not have a genetic predisposition for hearing problems. By my rough math we are already at almost $900 or so dollars. Then there are other tests, hyperuricosuria genetic testing $65. I've not done the color test at this point so I don't know that $$.
So I disagree in that to do the proper screenings it is not cheap at all!

Forgive me! I read some time ago on this forum someone responding to a "Hobby Breeder" as being a Greeder, maybe it was the situation in which they were going about it, I'm not sure. However, I looked at a Hobby Breeder as someone that doesn't breed for a living, but from time to time. I don't know if that's wrong too. I don't mean to offend anyone by what I've written, so please know that is not my intentions at all.[/QUOTE]

Not a problem! Actually you are correct in so far as what I deem to be the true Hobby Breeder doesn't breed for a living! Usually they have few very well thought out litters.

"Cheap...comparatively to the cost of mishap...":D[/QUOTE]

I did exclude OFA abd cerf chic and they are (correct me if wrong) annual and I know some breeders do it but are also concerned about the potential long term genetic effects of continual x-rays.

I don't know why but I do notice a difference between certification health tests I see from mini schnauzer breeders abd Yorkie breeders I assume its selective to breed issues.

The color gene testing is mainly utalized by say parti breeders etcs in carrier determination before pairing matings.

I did exclude OFA abd cerf chic and they are (correct me if wrong) annual and I know some breeders do it but are also concerned about the potential long term genetic effects of continual x-rays.

I don't know why but I do notice a difference between certification health tests I see from mini schnauzer breeders abd Yorkie breeders I assume its selective to breed issues.

The color gene testing is mainly utalized by say parti breeders etcs in carrier determination before pairing matings.[/QUOTE]

OFA testing for HIP or ELBOW dysplasia is usually only done once - at 2yrs old. PENN hip is another popular place to do early on testing for hips only - both these organizations have their supporters and detractors.

LP is practitioner examination and should be done early and I would repeat at 18mths and 2yrs old.

CERF - PRA testing is recommended by the opthamologists to do yearly. Most breeders unless breeding yearly opt to do every second year or before their next breeding/and or if they are concerned about an eye problem.

Blackies do carry a color gene, we still at times get an "off colored" BRT - ie any othercolor but black. I have not done this test yet.

My CPA has done the math....he says he can not understand why in the world anyone would throw money down the drain like I have, on these dogs. He has already told me something is going to have to change because I can not go into retirement spending the money I do, on expenses for this business. I only do a little better than break even. I try not to think about it....I could have retired 2 years ago, if I was not "fooling around, throwing money away on these dogs", as my CPA tells me! So, I will have to see what happens....

Judy, you're a breeder because you love the Yorkshire Terrier with all your heart, your dogs are beautiful, and quite frankly, you are great at what you do. It's never easy to do things the right way, without shortcuts, but clearly, quality shows. All newby breeders or those considering breeding can take lessons from your example.

What a kind, gracious thing to say to me!! I appreciate it more than you will ever know.....and I am going to print it out and include it in my taxes when I send them to my CPA....I can then tell him....."THIS IS WHY I DO WHAT I DO, THE WAY I DO IT!!!..."

Attach pics of your dogs and pups ...might make a yorkie lover out of your cpa!