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Are there any Breeders online? 2 of Autumn's babies are not thriving. They seemed to be doing ok but after I docked their tails yesterday they don't seem to be doing so well. Especially the little girl hubby calls Rosebud. The first boy was about 4 oz when he was born and Rosebud about 3 oz. Today they are a week old and the boy weighed about 3 oz and the girl about 2 oz. I know it is normal for a woman's baby to lose weight and then gain it back but is this normal for puppies? And is it normal to lose about an oz? I went out today and bought some supplemental milk and a bottle. The girl takes to it ok but the boy fights it. I tried letting the girl nurse on Lady but Lady won't be still, she wants to keep looking the baby over. I can't change the babies around, Lady's babies are so big that they'd crowd out whoever I put them with. Lady has lots of milk and Autumn seems to have enough. The other 2 of Autumn's puppies are doing great. They are over 6 oz and started out at a little over 4oz and about 41/2 oz. Is there anything else I can do for these 2 babies that I'm not already doing? Sylvia |
sorry you are having trouble...I don't know but will bump your thread so a breeder might see it faster |
bump... |
if your little girl has lost 2 0Z if i read that correctly i would contact the vet asap. your doing the right thing by supplementing though, and i personally would continue to sup every 3 hrs. day and nite. just a little, dont try to force them, let them take as much as they want though. tube feeding is an option, but i cannot describe to you here how to do that because it is very tricky and you would need a vet or experienced breeder to show you first hand. i wouldnt want to be responsible for your baby if it wasnt done right, but i wanted you to know it's an option if your vet will show you. there is a product on revivalanimal.com that is called puppy drops. if you could get some you could also use those, i've had good results with smaller, less thriving pups with them. but you need them pretty fast and with having to have the drops shipped, i would suggest you contact the vet. keep them warm number one! take them out and stimulate them before and after feedings to get that little system and blood pumping. use a warmed towel/ baby blanket and your hands and rub them gently all along their body. keep supplementing them and every 3 hrs and call the vet. stimulate, supplement, allow to nurse in between as much as they want, keep warm but not hot...allow an area in the box for them to crawl off the heat if they get too hot...usually by putting the heat pad on under one half of the box...poop and pee them in between feedings just in case mom isnt getting it all, and i will keep you in my prayers. good luck to you and let us know.... |
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i'd also like to add that i dont know the exact date they were born, but with 2-3 oz pups, it is better to wait a little beyond the normal time we would normally dock and dew claw remove...i had a 2.1 oz girl once that i waited until she was 7 days old to have her tail done as a safety measure and my vet said this was the right thing to do.. again, good luck with those babes and they're in my prayers... |
pups It does not hurt the tinies to wait on tail docking..I like mine to be at least 6 oz..before tail docking. Why not allow the mom with older pups to nurse them a few times a day until they start gaining again? You can remove use your hands to make a space for them to nurse, keeping the biggers ones away.....or let mom out to potty and put her pups in another room for a few minutes and let her nurse the ones you are concerned about..good luck |
I Used to supplement.....if I do now it is very minimal..........just at the beginning.....little sugar water & a bit of milk supplement, feed it to them upright, never tip their baby heads back. If they do not perk up or greatly improve in a few hours, let nature take its course. Dont keep trying to bring them out of it if they dont improve. My experience is this...........you only prolong thier life and misery. They are not healthy and should be left alone. Been there done that if that helps. |
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never give up unless your instincts tell you it's hopeless... or your vet. sometimes mom herself will let you know by ignoring or carrying certain babies away from the rest...has happened to me and was a sure sign there was no hope.. keep us updated. |
Are you not sure the Mom is nursing or is she just moving them around to clean them and such? It is not good that the pup has lost an ounce instead of doubling its weight in one week. If your two small ones will suckle from Mom, please give them personal time to do so. Maybe if Autumn is comfortable on your bed you could let her lay up there and nurse just the two small ones while you baby her quite a bit telling her what a good girl she is. They are quite rough with their babies and that is normal. Does she want to stimulate them to go to the bathroom? Please post an update....and I wish you a healthy litter...all of them. |
Ok, #1. They are still nursing. The other two have about doubled weight. #2. Mama is a little over 5# before breeding and daddy is 2 3/4#. In my mind it is possible that these two are just going to be small. Therefor I am giving them lots of leaway in their growth. It concerns me that they have lost weight. Hubby was out today and brought home a scale that measures ozs and grams. Now I can keep a really close eye on them. #3. Autumn is very afraid that Lady will take her puppies, and vice versa but Autumn is the worst. This is Autumn's first litter and Lady's second. I am watching them closely. What I would like to do is take Lady's puppies and give them to Autumn and give Autumn's two little ones to Lady. The problem with that is that Lady's babies are almost a # each while Autumn's bigger ones are half their size and I worry that they will be pushed away because they are smaller. I thot that if the bigger puppies could stimulate more milk production from Autumn then the little ones would have to get more milk when they nurse. Should I worry about how big the hole is in the nipple bottle. I can get air thru it but the babies seem to be having a hard time getting the milk out of the bottle. I know they need to suck vigourously but they seem to be sucking hard and not getting much for it. Sylvia |
Thank you, everyone for responding so quickly. I forgot to say that in the other post. I appreciate any help that comes my way. Robbie: I waited until they were 6 days to dock their tails. This particular little girl has rear dew claws that I missed and they are just going to have to wait now. I wasn't worried about her much before the docking because whenever I picked her up she felt strong. It's just after the docking that I really got worried. I am thinking possibly she's in shock still. Her brother is small but seems to be doing a slight bit better than Rosebud. There are no other signs of stress on the puppies that I can tell. I feel mom is not producing enough milk but the bigger two are doing great. Autumn is not moving the little ones away (I know a sign of them not being healthy). But she wants me with them and her constantly. She is driving me crazy. She doesn't want me on the computer even if I have her and the babies right beside me. Pat: I think I am going to have to do that. Once Lady gets used to them she should settle down and let them nurse. Right now all she wants to do is look them over again and again. Kelly: I can't say they have "perked up" yet but the boy does seem better. I hope it's not just wishful thinking. He doesn't like the bottle but Rosebud is taking to it well. Julz: Autumn is a very distracted mother. Everything catches her attention. At first she wouldn't leave them for anything and now she will leap out of the box at every sound. If we try to hold her down so they can nurse she just gets frantic to see what they are doing. (nursing) I wouldn't say she's nervous but being so distracted I don't think nervous is very far behind. She has no problem cleaning them. I don't have to worry there. Sylvia |
I would suggest you talk to your vet and get instructions on tube feeding. Its possible they don't have a strong enough suckle to thrive. I would think if the dam has enough milk for 2 the other 2 should be able to at the very least maintain their weight. To small a hole in the bottle they won't get milk, to large they will aspirate. The bottle should have a very slow drip if turned over. That's usually a good size hole. There is a recipe for "liver water" that helps for weak pups too. Make sure they are warm enough as well. Cool pups won't thrive, they can't digest milk. I hope they start to grow for you. |
You are very serious with your litters........... I am also very serious with the advice I give....... Good Luck & Good Will! |
Thank you CC and Kelly. CC: I didn't know that about the bottle, your info helps a great deal as I can get air thru the nipple but turned up it doesn't drip. I was afraid of putting too big of a hole in the nipple and possibly drowning one of them. Now I know the hole is not big enough and what speed the milk should drip when I get it right. The man who sold us the bottle said it had a hole in it but I couldn't see it and when we got in the car I tried it and no air came thru. Kelly: I know what you are talking about but as long as there's life I'm one of those that can't give up. Right now I have fed them 3 times and they seem to be doing better. The boy doesn't like the bottle but little Rosebud goes to town. My husband said we couldn't afford a digital scale so I could keep tabs on their weight, until next month. Then he had to go pick up one of our sons from work and bought a postal digital scale. LOL I am very happy to have it so I can see if Rosebud is thriving. He is very attached to her because of her size. |
Sylvia~ I am not directing this at you specifically because you are just doing what you feel is best as a breeder but I have to ask this...... Why even bother with docking tails and removing dew claws on tinies since they will never be show dogs? I don't understand why it is okay to put a puppy through that trauma for the "breed standard" if they are just going to be a pet? I hope these two little ones begin to thrive soon....it must be so scary to have them so small and feel so helpless about how to help them....YT is so great in these instances! :thumbup: If I were you, I might also find a vet who specializes in new born puppies...I am not sure if reproductive specialists are also helpful with newborns too, but they may know who is. Some "regular" or general vets who don't have a lot of breeders in their practice may not be as "up" on the latest techniques for helping these little ones. Just a thought. |
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Sylvia: It sounds as though you've gotten great advice from the breeders that frequent the forum and also that you have done your homework as well. I'm so glad that when members with a litter that have a question can post their concern they are able to get good sound advice relative to that concern. Thanks breeders for sharing your first hand experience with us! Please keep us posted on your two smaller babies. Lisa |
Pat gave you the best advice...Give two kids to the other mom...youre lucky to have two moms in milk, that is what saved babies life, he needed more time on the teat and mom was done with em! So Trina took over the job and quite well I might add. I hope you are keeping these two moms in separate rooms seems as though theyre too nervous around each other...best to keep them calm. If the other mom accepts the job I would leave the two that need the help on the real mom and two that are doing well on the surrogate JMHO. Put them on a teat about every two to three hours and make sure theyre eating. |
You've gotten some great advice from the other breeders here and the only 2cents I'll add is that you might want to try adding a bit of chamomile tea to the nervous mom's water to help calm her down and though it sounds a little nutty, I play Mozart (and other soothing classical stuff) for my dogs when they're antsy. They have a way of picking up on our stress so try to not be worried when you are dealing with this. Calmness is just as catching as nerves, so a nice cuppa tea or glass of wine gets prescribed for you too. Best of luck,Stacy |
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