Parents size
 

Hi there

I am hoping for some good, honest advice. I am still in my research stages and I have found myself a great mentor. The breeder who bred my 2 dogs will be assisting me when I am ready. Not only that but I will be assisting her with her next whelp to help me get a better understanding of what could go right and wrong in a whelp.

My female is almost due for her next heat. She will be going to see the vet for a pelvic xray to determine how well she will be able to whelp as well as tests for diseases etc.

I grew up on a farm often assisting in various births but yet this breed is a huge challenge as we all know. And I am not willing to put my female in danger.

She weighs about 2.5kgs or 5.5lbs and my male is slightly larger at about 3kgs or 6lbs. They are due for a final weigh in this weekend. My primary concern is that he will produce large puppies - too big for her to free whelp. She comes from a line of females who have had no problems at all giving birth. His lines are much the same and his mother had clean whelps.

His father was small and his mom was larger (within the standard) because the breeder prefers a larger, stronger female to produce strong pups. I bought him specifically based on his weight but as we all know you can never guess their adult weight! my famle is a smaller framed girl whereas he is much stronger and thicker set. Size wise they look the same, he just weighs more because of his build and his appetite! but she has put on nice weight and filled out to my liking and he has slimmed down and is as fit as a fiddle.

My breeder told me that the size of the male is not necessarily a deciding factor in breeding. He might produce small puppies. I just want another opinion. What are the important things to look for in his lines? I have good access to this information so if I know what im looking for it will help.

I have access to another male smaller than my female but I dont know his lines or history so im not happy about that.

I know I am a first time breeder, often stepping on older breeders toes, but I would appreciate some advice before making any decisions so that I know in my heart and mind that I am doing things right - if not then i dont ever do it.

It is not just the male's size, but his line's sizes. Since you already said that "His father was small and his mom was larger (within the standard) " and "She comes from a line of females who have had no problems at all giving birth. His lines are much the same and his mother had clean whelps. " -- things are looking good so far. Now look to the litters that his mother and father produced. Were most of them within standard as adults? That is an important thing when looking specifically at size. His size is not that much larger than your girl. So, I do not see a danger to health if other puppies in litters produced by his parents (and maybe even look at grandparents) were not over standard as adults or overly large at birth. It is fine for them to wind up like him @ 6 pounds as an adult. The fact that the mother and father were responsible for all clean, healthy whelps says they are not throwing huge puppies that could endanger the mom. So you are probably safe on size. Just ask the breeder specifically about other puppies sizes from the mom & father of both your dam and sire. That will give you a good idea.

I won't go in to anything else as you only asked about size. I do want to congratulate you on going about this the right way -- research, research, mentoring, and investigation! Then testing, evaluation, and more mentoring! Always learning! Always on the lookout for more input!

He was the smallest male puppy from his litter but not the smallest puppy overall (he was one of 7!!!!!!) but they were all within the standard. Then again, we thought he would be small and grew - like I say, we can never guess their adult size!

My breeder and I keep in close contact and I like that because I think it's important for her to see how her pups grow up as well and that they are well cared for etc. and her input is fantastic. And his parents and Gandparents are all owned by her still.

One thing I must say about my male is that he is strong and probably the most healthy dog I have ever owned! he doesnt ever get tear stains, has never had to visit the vet except for his innoculations and has a personality worth spreading!

My female had a rough start in life but only because her breeder (the mother in law of the lady that bred my male) was irresponsible and let her leave her mother at 6 weeks because she was immigrating overseas:( back then I had no idea of the risk involved in that and I nearly lost her the first night I had her due to her stress levels and a very high white blood cell count. She spen her first night with me in emergency on a drip but is a little bullet now! one mistake I will never make as a breeder. My pups stay with me until 10 - 12 weeks no matter what!

Thank you for your input I really appreciate it - I dont want to do anything stupid and put them in danger. Im happier knowing that i can research his lines more thoroughly now. I have been researching this since the day she came into my life and she is the most important thing to me.

Yep, as previously stated, the size of the dam and sire alone mean little. You have to take into account the size of the other dogs in their lines as well.

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Kudos to you. Sadly, that seems like a rarity these days. :(

You've done your homework. Keep in mind that the dam controls the size of the pup while in utero. And what happens after the whelp is a somewhat of a crap shoot......

Mom was tall, the old man was not. Brother at 6'5", Steve is not. So I blame it on Mom!

Mom was small so am I.....all my 6 other sisters are above 5'7" and each outweigh me at about 20 pounds at the minimum, big girls. My brother's range from 5'7" to 6'4". It's all in how those genetics shake out.

""""My brother's range from 5'7" to 6'4". It's all in how those genetics shake out""""

I hear you and know first hand! When he was 2 and I was 5, he was taller! LOL I call him Lurch.

I always say 12 weeks old AND at least 2 pounds. I had to keep a few longer as my pups were small and I wanted at least 2 pounds going out the door so they would be healthy and not quite as fragile. One little man went less than 2 pounds but he was 16 weeks old -- just tiny. He went to a seasoned yorkie owner though. Some said I was looking for excuses for keeping them longer. I really bonded with my pups and wished I wanted to keep them all!

Although, It is recommended that pups are kept until a minimum of 12 weeks of age. There are so many other factors that come into play. One is as you say the weight of the pup, how well they are eating on their own, etc. But, if one is now keeping the new Bile Acid protocol in mind, the timeline would be 16 weeks.

I guess I have to revise that since BAT is given at 16 weeks and 6 months. I never gave the puppies BAT before they went to new homes before. I want to stay current on information, just in case I get to the point where I want to breed again some day. I already miss puppies everytime I see a litter posted on here! But then I look at Annie, and ask myself: Could I really risk losing her. I don't think so....

Thanks for all your input :) I definitely want to do this right if I do it because just like everyone feels, I would never want to put my dam at risk. I looked at her last night and just said to my fiance that im nervous to put her in danger. Her vet visit is coming up soon (probably next week) for her pelvic xray and health tests which will also help me make a decision.

I knnow she is going to be a great mommy though - parting with the pups will be MY biggest challenge! I think my poor fiance already fears we will end up keeping one ;)

I want to put contracts into place with the new owners when the time comes - is there anywhere I could get a template from to base mine on? My pups will be registered with KUSA which is the South African registery and Im putting breeding restrictions on them all regardless. Simply because I know how much work I have had to do getting to this point...and so many people just breed for the money. The lady that owns my females sister from the same litter wants to breed her and im trying desperately to talk her out of it because she has done NO research and thinks it's a simple matter of letting them mate, popping out some puppies and making some money. I expect to come out in a negative balance! Which I am also prepared for - my dogs have their own bank account ;) in the long run it's all about the love of the breed for me!

There are plenty templates out there for contracts. However, your best bet is to develop one with a laywer. Once that protects the pup first and equally covers the best interest of the seller and buyer. It should be in keeping with the laws of your local. Cover all the basis, but the pup is number one.
There are so many contracts out there, that aren't worth the paper they are written on. But, also keep in mind that a contract is only as good as the two people signing it. In other words if you don't trust a person, then you shouldn't be placing a pup with them. And if they don't trust you they shouldn't be buying a pup from you. My mentor and I have never had a contract between us.....It's always been a smile and a kiss on the cheek. But, we trust each other implicitly.

Mary, are you putting a Recruit Platoon of Marines thru Basic? Reason I ask is, you seem to get up before the Roosters.

When you have pups....they rule the roost. When they gotta go, they gotta go. Rise and shine at 05:00 a.m. Breakfast at 07:00. These little guys have an internal clock, their needs come first, the heck with mom needing sleep.

I dont have a contract with my breeder either. We discussed breeding before I made any decisions. she was happy with me breeding from her lines.

Most of my puppies have homes already and they arent even conceived yet! they will all be going to people I know and who have admired Taylor since I got her and love the breed. I would rather keep them all than let them go to people I dont trust. You are right, these days the contract can be worth less than the paper signed on :( I want it to include spay and neuter clauses though mainly and I WILL check up on my babies at the given time. If not done according to the agreement I will have to be hardcore! But im planning on it all going smoothly :)

Maxine usually makes a sneezing sound and then spins in place to wake Marge up at around 6 am. I usually do not get up until 7 am. With Marge gone, Max now starts making racket at 5:30 am. I have been up 3 hours and now feel bad for Marge getting up so early everyday. Carlo and I usually sleep in. I know, Men!

My mentor was a bit more stringent; it was a year and half before she allowed me a pup. Traveling with her, studying, learning, etc, assisting her in whelps. Finishing 3 Champions before allowing me near a whelping box with the bitch she entrusted me with.

Spay/nueter clause is great....but, be inclusive of their housing, medical care, etc......

Sound like I have lots to look forward to! spinning and barking at 5:30am is fine for me though because im up at 5am every morning ;) My dogs usually go for their morning stroll at that time! and if im late im in BIG trouble!

With regards to whelping boxes, i find every breeder has a different idea. Is the full scale box with pig rails the best way to go? My fiances father said he will help build one because he has good carpentray skills. Then I see other people who just use a kennel or a box high enough to let mommy come and go and keep puppies in. But I want to do this right - I have the time! I was thinking about building a wooden box with good proper floowing for warmth just without the pig rails. Is this safe or do they need the rails?? The lady that bred my female just left them in a kennel outside (yes outside!) which was fenced and mommy could get in and out. I was very shocked with that though! When i got my puppy she had a big grey tick on her neck :( then nearly died the same night so im not willing to make even the slightest mistake here. Yet her daughter in law who bred my male had them in a wooden Wendy House outside, especially built for her dogs wiht litters with heating and proper care which is why I have stuck with her because I believe she is as particular as I aim to be. But she doesnt use a box as such because her room is specially built to house the mother and the puppies safely. Mine however will be inside our house so I need the right thing!

I really do wish I had the time and freedom and assistance to find a mentor like yours Mardelin! You are very privelegded :) That's the kind of thing I dream of!

The pig rail whelping box is very unnecessary for toy breeds, at least in my opinion. Your main concern is keeping them in a quiet, warm, draft free enviornment. Away from the normal hustle and bustle of family.

A whelping box is usually put inside another confinement such as a puppy play pen and some use x-pens. I prefer keeping them off the floor as cold air drops. I use to use a puppy playpen. Lined the grated floor with newspapers (to keep draft from rising underneat), on top of the newspaper I use interlocking excesise squares (rubber type tiles) for sure footing for mom and pups when they begin venturing out of the whelping box. On top of the rubber tiles I lined the entire area with piddle pads. Then added the whelping box. The box I use is plastic, completely lined with lambs wool and I add washable crate pads that are made of warm cozy material. I've also added velcro to the bottoms of the crate pads so they stay in place (safer for the pups). Also added around the play pen a cover to keep drafts out and anyone from looking in (some moms are very protective of anyone looking at their pups).

What I use now is a baby crib, removed the mattress, added plywood to the bottom and completely lined it with plexiglass and afixed it to the crib. Then lined the bottom with pish pads...and inserted a whelping box. Draft free and sanitary...very easy clean up.

I was thinking of making a wooden sided box with a wooden floor and putting those same kind of mats at the bottom. I have seen some that they use for kiddies play boxes and/or yoga types mats. The are washable as well! and then lining that with newspaper because I know newspaper retains warmth. I live in South Africa and she will have her pups in late summer / early autumn so I have also got an electric heated pad but Im a little nervous of it in case it gets too hot. I thought if it is deep enough under the blankets etc that it would be ok. it only has one set heat. I actually have a pure sheep skin cured skin that I hate but they can have! now that you mention it what a good idea! I always wondered what on earth I would do with the thing!

The velcro is a great idea too! thanks so much, i have a lot to work with now!

My puppies will be housed in our spare room which is quiet and away from the TV and lounge and is carpeted and warm. I keep my bird in there as well to keep her out of drafts. It's Taylor's favourite room of the house so I think she will nest well there.

I would set up a cot for yourself in the room, you'll have to be vigilant for the first few weeks.....

I usually don't use a heating pad, as pups usually gravitate toward mother and I usually keep the room warm. If I do need extra heat, I use a heating lamp. What you really need to be concerned with is drafts.

Noted :) Thanks! I dont have a heating lamp but I live in a warm country so the cold shouldnt be a huge problem.

Do the dams get upset if you move the whelping box around? what I mean is, if she sets up nest in one spot and I love her to our room after the pups are born would she reject the box?

Mmmm. Yorkies are a bit different than other dogs. You do not allow them to set up nest, willy, nilly. You take control over this. A week before her first due date. Place her in the area where she is to whelp, you want her in a quiet area. This will get her ready for the task at hand; whelping and being a mom. This is for her benefit and the pups. You don't want her going into whelp and dropping the pups where ever and risking chill.

Thats a good idea. A week before?? I must note that down. My fiance's Husky gave birth on his couch when he was very young - he never knew she was in Labour and went to cook and came back to her in labour on his sofa! He had given her a proper nest but she chose the couch!

I know Taylor will just be very happy to have a warm bed inside our room and will take it over just great! Our house is small though so i really need to think about the spot well. Is it advisable to have daddy sleep in his usual spot the entire duration of her pregnancy and after the whelp? He currently sleeps outside in a kennel in Summer time. We live in a very hot place! They made the outside choice themselves! I can call them in at night until im blue in the face and they ignore me!!!!!

Are speaking of Daddy/Sire? Again, I can't state strongly enough; your girl and her pups should be kept in a quiet place, away from traffic and other animals......

Husky/Yorkies.....apple and oranges. However, the whelping process is serious business no matter what breed. But, yorkies require whelping assistance, human intervention, so many things can go wrong. They are a small breed.

I hear ya sister! All I want for Christmas is for my dogs to sleep in until 7 a.m. . . .

Daddy/Sire is mine so he will be home of course. He is a very soft, loving little guy but very curious so I dont want him disturbing them. So it's best then to keep them away from all 'traffic' including him I suppose.

As for assistance, We have two 24 hour emergency vets in our area, one is my personal vet. They will both be on standby! We have another 2 within a 20 kilometer radius as well, one of which is one of the best pet hospitals in the country. We are very blessed in that regard!