advise / weaning/ engorged nipples
 

Hi...
a new question. Puppies are now 5 + weeks, Gracie started weaning them last week, now she's growling at them, we're giving them mush and they're learning the basics of eating and doing ok. It's Gracie I'm concerned about, as she stopped nursing them on her own and if we made her lay down she'd tolerate the puppies nursing (1-2x day)and she'd be relieved, now tonight she got really angry at them for nursing after we laid her down with them, growling snapping. Thus we didn't push it; however her nipples are engorged (not terribly, but still swollen - looking in need of being nursed) and my question is what should I do, just let it be and she'll dry up on her own or what to do now? (We started putting Bag Balm on her nipples as they looked sore, which helped for a couple days, she seemed to tolerate nursing them (with our assistance)...but tonight it was a definite no-go.) She still cares for them...if they make too much noise she goes and checks on them and is still protective of them...but the first time they run up and try to nurse she's ready to bite (??) them.
What to do?? Thanks for any advice.
Kendra

It is a bit unusual for a momma to wean the pups that young. How many pups is she nursing? Most of my mommas allow the pups to nurse at least 8 weeks or longer. Have you cut the toenails on the pups? If you have not then I suggest you do that. Puppy toenails get really sharp and can really hurt the momma when the pups are nursing.

I feel it is best if the pups are allowed to nurse several times a day. You can grind up some dry puppy food for them to lick on in addition to the mush you are giving them.

If the mommas teats get to full you might want to put a warm compress on them.

Thanks for responding.
Yes, we've clipped their nails (three times since they've been born, so nearly once a week - yes, they are sharp) they also have very sharp teeth..maybe that's the problem.
We used the warm compress this morning, held her down, and she nursed them for about 4 minutes. But she would not have nursed them on her own.

She's pretty much done with nursing I'm afraid. The pups also didn't seem that interested in nursing after about 4 minutes. Animals usually know what they're doing without human interference, so I'm not too concerned with the weaning, they've continued to put on weight (though the daily gaining is less these days), and are active and healthy.
My concern is what to do with mama now that's she's weaning (be it 5 or 8 wks) Do I let her dry up naturally or is there something I should be doing? Like a shot from the vet to speed up the drying up process? I don't want her to get an infection.
Any further advise is really appreciated.
Kendra

I always let mine dry up naturally and I have never had a female get engorged teats or an infection during the weaning process. I would not take her completely away from the pups but she needs to be able to go to them when she wants to. I use a 8" board to separate mom from pups so she can go to them when she wants to but they can't get to her. Her snapping at them is part of the weaning process. The pups will need mom around to teach them social skills. How big is mom and her pups? Bigger pups are easier to wean early than the tiny ones are.

I have in the past put a soft infants shirt or onesie on mom to restrict access from the pups when they are still trying to nurse. Just a suggestion. :)

yes, when the moms are done, there isn't much you can do about it!!

I actually had the same concern you did, I had a mom that was done and she was VERY engorged and it just looked sooo painful! i was afraid of mastitis. I did you what you did, warm compress and then I milked her to release some of the pressure. She cleared up in about a week

Here is what she looked like
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...1286508988.jpg

Definitely not something I like to see. :( Hope everything goes ok for your little mommy!

More than likely your pupshave their full compliment of milk teeth and is the reason mom is not allowing them access to those nipples. They are nipping at her and it hurts. This is the time when weaning begins, the consistancy of mother's milk is changing, not as rich.

I've always allowed my girls to call the shots. But, if she really doesn't allow them to nurse on her, then decrease her food intake. Some withhold food for 24 hours and keep her away from pups. These pups being so young, mmmmm I'd try working with her a bit more. Weaning time is very crucial......But, they are old enough to lap. Goat's milk, equal parts of distilled water and Gerber's rice cereal with a bit of Karo......Let them go at it about 4 to 5 times a day.

Thanks everyone for your replies. Re: separating them but still leaving her access...well, tonight one of managed to climb over a 12" piece of cardboard we had duct taped to the door of the x-pen, which did allow mama to jump in and out as she pleased. We put him back and he did it again...5 times. Thus we're working on making it higher, but then mama can't get in and out. We put a box step on the outside of the pen and let her jump in, but she has trouble getting back out. (my concern is if she gets stuck in there while we're at work, and they keep hounding her to nurse, she'll bite one, as she does not want them nursing anymore. I know she cares as we put them on the kitchen floor tonight and of course they all headed off in different directions which mama started getting concerned trying to round them all up (trying to push them back to the center of the kitchen) as she couldn't keep an eye on all them in separate corners (yes, we were watching them explore, thus they were supervised by us)
This is a challenge as they seemed awfully advanced for their age. They are beginning to eat fairly well, though I'm not sure they are getting all they should (though they are still gaining a bit so I guess they are) They know their names and come when you call them individually, they all come running out of their play pen into the xpen all excited when we come home. Now they're climbing. The one takes to running to try to jump the cardboard (unsuccessfully). Somehow I didn't think they did all this for at least a couple more weeks.
I'll try the separating and holding off of food for mama tomorrow and see how it goes.
Thanks again...feel free to keep those ideas coming in as I really appreciate it all.
Kendra

oh my gosh, no mine doesn't look that bad. Wow...your poor mama...yes, it looks painful. oooo, gives me quivers just thinking about that!

I've been giving mama (since she gave birth) the puppy food and the canned milk/gelatin mixture and the puppies love that. I've been grinding puppy kibble and goat's milk, and placing a bite in each of their mouths, they lap at the goat's milk and drink water fine, they try to chew the puppy kibble...we give them it whole, chopped coarse, and chopped fine (yeah, I know it's a doggie diner, spoiled mutts!!! lol) but they don't do that well on the kibble. all their teeth are in and sharp as razors. They even try to chew the metal on the x-pen and all their toys. The one picks up the (heavy) saucer, chews on it and drags it around.
Funny, but doesn't alleviate all my concerns. They certainly act healthy.
I'm also concerned they won't get enough mama training time (until they are completely weaned) because she tries to play with them (I see her trying to teach them correct soft biting), but then they go for the nursing and she's out of there.
Such worries. Kendra

That's a good idea...I'll try that also...I was just really hoping she'd nurse them another week or two. thanks.
Kendra

Mama is about 5 3/4 pounds (she's been eating good). the pups seem big to me (birth weights: 5.5 ounces, 5 ounces, 4.5 ounces, now boy one: 2 lbs, boy two: 1.7 lbs, and girl: 1.5 lbs respectively). Up until lately they had all been nursing like crazy whenever they could. I think they just wore her out. We've even tried just taking one to her, she'll tolerate the girl (for all of a minute), but they boys she will tolerate nursing even less.

She give me a ten minute warning before she had the first (three days before her due date). She whimpered, clawed at my legs, I felt her stomach (hard as a rock), got the whelping box out, made her comfy, made a tent with a blanket, rubbed her head and decided just to take a "peek" (10 minutes after the first & only whimper) and the first one was 3/4 of the way out. 25 minutes later came #2, and about an hour later came #3, all on her own, not even a whimper. I was soooo thankful I took her to work with me everyday the last 3 weeks of her pregnancy...as she had them shortly after we got home from work, she could have easily had them at home by herself if I had left her. The first one's sack was fairly thick and we definitely had to break that...so I imagine he'd had a problem had she had been alone.
Kendra

My girl was looking engorged one night and I put warm wet wash cloths on her and just gave a little pressure to help get some of the milk out. This was like at 3 a.m. when I got up to check on her and her babies. I did this for about 30 minutes and she was totally comfortable through the process and a few hours later her belly looked back to normal.

Is your girl still looking engorged?

Not too bad. Individual nipple areas swollen, but not the entire area between, not dimpled. The only way we can get her to nurse them for even a couple minutes is to put a bowl of the after birth "pudding" as she loves that (as I said before) into the x pen, the pups come running and they nurse while she's eating. We tried the hot pack. I've added the rice cereal to their mush (+ a drop of puppy nutrical in morn, some karo at night)...rice cereal seems to "stick to their ribs" --- Gracie's just done nursing. I think in order to keep her spending time with them I need to let her dry up, put the shirt on, but I think it's them that needs to accept if they wanna see mama, then don't try to nurse so she'll stay in the pen with them. Like I said, they seem to be thriving, so I'm trying to let nature take its course (of course, mother nature has left the feeding of the pups to me!!! lol)

Thanks to everyone for responding, it has really helped.
Kendra

Good...I'm glad she's doing better. I'd continue to do warm compresses and try to drain any engorged nipples so long as its not too uncomfortable to momma. My girl nursed until the pups were about 8-9 weeks and she dried up on her own. She tappered off and didnt stop abruptly. Are you mixing goats milk with the rice cereal?

Yes, goats milk (with a little distilled water) with rice cereal and finely crushed puppy kibble....and --- I'm thinking this needs to be a separate post --- some chicken meat (1 x day)...very finely diced, about the equivalent to a 3/4 tsp -- (they love it and when I add it to their kibble they gobble it all up, included the coarser chopped kibble. Their potty is normal, so I'm assuming the white chix breast meat isn't hurting them or upsetting their stomachs ( I hope its safe to do ). If anyone knows that's a definite no-no, please advise me asap, so I can stop.
Again, gave Gracie (mama) the pudding and she nursed them while eating it tonight.
They are learning not to harass her so much as tonight she got in and played with them, rolled around, play bite, etc., they played back and none of them tried to nurse, so she spent quite a bit of time actually playing with them. She didn't sleep with them last night -- we still have a heating pad under a corner of their sleeping quarters -- so they're warm enough, I think she needed the break to get back into her mothering duties of spending time with them without nursing. She really acted like she enjoyed her play time with her puppies, though I think she got a little rough a couple times, flipped one of them over with her nose (as he decided to take a nap) while urging him to join them in play. And she played more with one than the other two (it was the pup that wants to play more with her), but it "seemed" like she was really trying to teach this one something (play gentler?? maybe?? as that pup is always trying to crawl on Gracie's face and bite Gracie's nose as Gracie would get a hold her the puppy's nose and hold it for a few seconds before letting her go).
Anyway, I think everything will be okay, ultimately would have probably been better had she nursed longer, but like Mary said, because their teeth are all in (and little razors) and they are vigorous suckers, I think she just had to let it go.
Thanks so much for everyone's help, concern, and interest; I truly appreciate it more than words can say. Kendra

Boy I guess I've been lucky with Krystal. She more or less called the shots. She just tappered off feeding them and I started dried puppy chow which they love. It's only been the last two to three days that she has been growling and snapping at them to stop them nursing. And she has had gradual shrinking in her teets. The pups are fine and even love broken up dog bones to crunch. I've cut her food back and stopped adding puppy food to her food. She's back to being more playful and running. I love seeing her do that and missed it while she played mommy.
Dion

It all worked out. Gracie does want to eat their food and will jump into the x--pen and two of them will go after her to nurse, which she lets them for the 2-3 minutes it takes to gobble their food up!. The second born boy, he has no interest in nursing. They are all thriving and go for their first shots this coming weekend. They are eating kibble (still giving them the whole, kibble, rough chopped, and fine chopped + plus tiny pieces of chicken breast meat and puppy bones. They also still get a little goat's milk diluted with water, but they prefer diluted 1/2 and 1/2 (I found that out one evening when I ran out of goat's milk) She's back to running and playing with our other Yorkie and tries to play with the pups but she gets a little rough I think...but the first born boy plays rough with her and I think he nips her and it ticks her off! We had them out playing in the kitchen last night and he played too rough and she got after him and it made him mad, and then he went after her and they were nearly ready to fight - scared me) Due to being gone all day we have to keep them separated, (we blocked off the x-pen gate as high as we could so Gracie could jump in and out, (14") but now the one boy can climb that and I can't have him getting out while we're gone at work), so we close the gate, because she can't make it out if it went any higher - we can't keep Gracie in there all day as two of the pups won't leave her alone and I'm afraid she'll hurt them if trapped in that pen all day with 'em. We can't let them run loose as they'd be lost for sure in our house.
Anyway, yeah, I guess let mother nature take it's course. She was an exceptional doting mother the first 5 weeks, tapered off her "concern" this last couple weeks, still protective, but doesn't feel the need to be with them all the time.
Kendra

Hello Kendra, I've really enjoyed reading this thread as I am beginning the weaning process with our 4 puppies. Lucy developed eclampsia 4 days following whelp, so we have been bottle feeding them since then. I had to deal with the swollen teats, and her crying for her puppies to feed them, but the vet said absolutely not. What my vet recommended was "cold compresses", as opposed to "warm compresses". I got one of those gel pads, put it in the freezer and wrapped it in a cloth, so it wouldn't be too cold. She loved it, and would lay on her back, cradled in my arms like a baby, while I applied a little pressure. She had some issues with sadness over not being able to nurse the pups, so she didn't eat so well for the first week. That seemed to dry her up pretty quickly. Also, I purchased some baby onsie pajamas from the resale store, and cut off the arms and legs & put a slot for her tail. That way, she could interact with the pups, and no worries about them trying to nurse from her. Now that the puppies are 4 weeks old, she still interacts with them for short periods of play, and if one trys to nurse off her, she simply gets up and walks away. I still keep an eye on this though, as I'm sure even though she looks dried up, they could probably suckle enough to get things flowing again. I'm giving our puppies gruel, but only twice per day... and still supplementing them with the bottles they are used to. They are good at lapping, but don't want water ! I don't want them to get dehydrated and of course I want to slowly get them on food and not overwhelm their GI track. Our puppies are big... they were born at 7 oz., 6.4 oz. 6.8 oz. & 5.8 oz. Now they are between 1-1/2 lbs. and 2 lbs. !! Basically, they gain 1 oz. per day. I use fresh, whole goats milk, yogurt, karo, & egg yolk. Our pups did not like the taste of evaporated, canned goats milk. Someone said the whole milk was better, but wow.. a bit expensive !!

I'm worried about moving too fast on the gruel (which they can lap, so it is a medium consistency) and the worries about dehydration with refusing water. I started putting a little formula in their water, and they still turn their nose up at it. Grrrr... they want their milky !! So if I fed them 4 times per day of the gruel, and they were not drinking much water, I worry about them through the night, dehydration and issues with constipation. Do you or anyone else have any ideas ? My pups do not have teeth yet.

Yes, these types of threads are great for helping aren't they? I learn so much from not only my own questions, but from others. Sorry to hear your dog had trouble with eclampsia. Gracie did some weird panting a couple times (& acting odd) and I was concerned but then she stopped (we attributed it to laying in the whelping box on a heating pad and nursing and exhausting & overheating her). Now I wonder what was up with that really. Might have been the start of eclampsia.
My pups had all their teeth at 4 weeks, thus I'm thinking that's why Gracie decided to wean them...though when she jumps in their x-pen to play with them (or steal their puppy food) they usually attack her and try to nurse...she sets them straight right quick! (they're 8 weeks now).
Water: I, too was fearful of dehydration, at about 3 weeks I'd dip my fingers into the water bowl and open their mouths and put a few drops in..I'd do that twice daily. Then at about 4 weeks they'd go to the water bowl and lap at it. I always kept it at half water, half ice...thus I think once they discovered the nice cool water they loved it.
The puppy mush: I would open their mouths and put some in each of their mouths 2 x a day, which they weren't crazy about but I knew they were at least getting something (they'd spit it out at first, but I'd make 'em swallow it - seemed cruel, but I wanted to make sure they got something of substance in them) plus I'd leave chopped puppy kibble (I'd put the already small kibble in a baggie and take a hammer and smash it "fine") and they would go over and try a nibble or two, eventually getting the hang of it. I still give them puppy kibble in three "sizes" 2 x day: I use Royal Canin Baby Dog. I put some of the kibble in their bowl (unchopped), add some "rough chopped" and then some "fine chopped" - they eat it all so I'm sure I wouldn't have to chop it any more, but it makes me feel like I'm doing something special for them. Mary suggested I add baby cereal (rice) to the mush and I did that (made sure that got put into their mouths), that didn't last long as I noticed they preferred their mush without it and would eat it better without - but I think that was because I started the rice cereal after introducing them to the dog food mush - so I think the rice cereal is a great idea.
I was buying the canned goats milk and diluting it with distilled water, warm it and they loved that. But now they prefer diluted regular canned milk or 1/2 & 1/2 - so they get probably a 1/2 cup of diluted milk 2 x a day.
I use to give them Karo (a drop) once a day and then a puppy nutri cal once a day (alternate feedings), but have since quit that as they are just thriving, seem like much older puppies.
Since yours don't have teeth, maybe just make up the rice cereal w/ a teeny tiny drop of the puppy nutri cal (liquid) mixed in, plus some karo and a teeny tiny bit of fine crushed puppy kibble and put it in their mouths several times a day.
I read another thread about massaging their backsides with a warm washcloth to stimulate mama's licking of them to help them eliminate.
I think as long as they were getting the mush in them you could start cutting back on the bottle feeding and making sure you give them some water each day...but I'm not the expert here. Just when I think I know nearly all I need to know a new question comes up for me. Thank Goodness for YT and these threads and all the experienced breeders we have here!
Good Luck, let me know how it goes
Kendra

Hey Kendra, thanks for your reply ! It's great to hear other's experiences, and share back and forth. I actually did start with a rice cereal / crushed Wellness dry kibble... I think the ratio is 1 Cup Rice Cereal, 1 Cup Goats Milk formula mixture that had the yogurt, karo and egg yolk only, mixed with 1/2 C. of pulverized, basically powdered dry puppy kibble. I used my food processor at first so it was nearly powder. It was way too thick, so I thinned it down with more formula at first, so they could lap it. They loved it... never any issues with eating, or having to hand feed these little "eaters", but unfortunately they have been used to us feeding them given the eclampsia issue since day 4 ! Thank God they got 4 days of colustrum from the Momma !

The pups surprised me and started drinking heavily diluted water with a little bit of formula... It's amazing how quickly they develop and change from one day to the next, even hour to hour. I'm still going to take it slow..

You know, I'll bet your little girl was feeling a bit of eclampsia given what you said about the "heavy panting". That was my first sign she was not right. When I picked her up, and she couldn't stand, I knew it would only go downhill from there. No way would I risk her life, so off to the ER my husband went at 3 am. The vet said, she could have been dead by the time we awoke in the a.m. from severe seizures & calcium issues. I know so much more now, that if we ever breed her again.. which we are not planning, even though despite everything it's been an amazing experience, I will supplement with calcium upon whelp with the pudding mixtures and monitor the demand the puppies place on the Momma. I believe our pups were a bit larger in size, and our Lucy was almost 9 lbs., but still... she nursed continuously and the pups depleted her in a short time. I even had the vet check her calcium even though they didnt' want to, 24 hours post whelp and all was fine. They basically admonished me for worrying about eclampsia until 2-3 weeks into nursing when the demand was higher, and 3 days later... it happened, and could have been deadly. So the breeders here, with their experience have much to share and tha's why I was so cautious about the eclampsia.

Thanks so much for all your comments and advice ! How are your babies doing at 8 weeks ? Do you have good families for all of them ? Our babies were just 4 weeks today, and they bring such joy to our whole family. If you don't mind me asking, how much are you selling your pups for ? Mine are pretty much spoken for from family members, but they still intend to pay for them. I have an idea of how much to ask, as I paid $650 for my little girl a while back, but I really am not sure. Lucy is not a show dog or anything, just a wonderful temperment amazing little girl. Loves everyone... totally wonderful. Wow, Kendra.. not sure about you but the whole breeding thing has been big bucks, especially the hand feeding thing. No problem though.. I was prepared for anything but Wow !! To do it right, it costs big bucks for sure ! Thanks again for your message. Keep in touch, and I'll do the same. Time for the last feeding then finally sleep for me !!

I sent you a PM