Need advice - possible unplanned breeding
 

Okay, this is going to be a long story.

As most of you know, I help out with my dad's Yorkies (he breeds pet Yorkies). Anyway, a little over a year ago we sold a female to a gal in North Carolina. She flew out, met us, and took her puppy home with her. A couple of months ago, she contacted us again about a playmate for her girl, and we had a male, half brother to her girl, that we thought would be a perfect match for the family. The male was already 7 months old, a real sweetie and I knew that Daisy (the female Yorkie) and Wyatt (the boy) would get along great.

As soon as he got to his new home he was neutered as planned (we sold both dogs on limited registration, plus, Wyatt and Daisy have the same father and their mothers are sisters - though the mothers are unrelated to the father). For whatever reason, Daisy has not been spayed. Anyway - 4 days after his neuter, Wyatt and Daisy apparently tied. Now, I wasn't there, so this is all second-hand infromation. This was on the 12th. The new owner says that Daisy is starting to have some mammary swelling and she thinks she may be pregnant.

Here are my questions-

Is it possible for a male to still be fertile after a neuter - and if so, for how long?

Because of the close line breeding that this mating would create, should the pregnancy be allowed to continue?

If not, what is the time-frame for being able to spay a possibly pregnant female?

Hmmmm....I dunno. I know they can be fertile for a while after the neuter, but 4 days is really a stretch, I think. It's possible that it's a false pregnancy? (Hopefully)

If it were me, I would err on the side of caution and have her spayed. (I mean, they were planning to anyway, right?)

In addition to their close linage not being 'ideal,' it would be very risky for them to breed with know preparation and real know-how.

Tough call.

It is my understanding that a male would still be able to impregnate a female right after a nueter. I am unsure about for how long after, but I think it is something like 2 weeks. I would spay as soon as possible. Pregnant or not... It will cost a little more for the spaying but that could be the LEAST of the expenses. Close line breeding like that should only be done with the BEST of the BEST of the breed, in my opinion. Close line breeding with pet quality yorkies could potentially bring out the very worst in them. Good luck and I hope some of the more experienced breeders can help out here better than I can. I am curious to learn as well.

Thanks Bama. :) I am really hoping that this is a false pregnancy.

I jsut thought we had thought about this carefully and had everything worked out so that there wouldn't be something like this happen.

Part of my worry is that, the new owner is going to want her female to have these puppies, even though the "parents" are so closely related. I mean, I don't know for certain, but my guess is that is how she is going to feel.

I am so worried, even if this were the perfect breeding pair, because she has no experience with breeding, etc, and I am too far away to help. :(

Ergh. I am just so out of my mind over this.

Errrrg...yeah, I can understand that this would be driving you nuts. It sounds like they were *trying* to do the right thing. I hope all works out for the best. Their lack of experience would be the biggest concern, IMO.

Here's hoping that it is false pregnacy. I would check with your vet, if it is possible. It does take 6 months for hormones to completely disapate after a spay/nueter. Somehow I don't think there is a chance that a pregnacy occurred. That is unless they performed a vasectomy instead of castration.

What you described is not line breeding, but inbreeding.

I'll try to explain the implications of inbreeding. Inbreeding is not something that is encouraged, however there have been very experienced breeders that have done it. It is a way to find out if you have any genetic unsoundness in your line. Any fault you have, you're locking it in, just as you are locking in good traits. In other words, it can turn out just fine, or if you have any genetic problems they have a greater chance of showing up.

Well, inbreeding then. Whatever you want to call it, the only thing my dad has ever done is total outcrossing, never breeding any dogs that are related in at least the last 4 generations. So, not something I have any expereince with.

Fingers crossed here, for sure. I am hoping she is jusat going in to her first heat, which is why her "mommy" noticed the swelling, etc.

Good Luck

I will keep everyone posted!


I was honestly hoping someone would say "nope, not at all possible" so I'd know for sure. :) But, I guess impossible situations turn out to be possible sometimes anyway. I have heard some strange breeding stories. :)


Thanks for all the help, everyone. Pray that she's not pregnant.

I am going to go ahead and prepare the owner as if Daisy were pregnant. Though, I have never walked anyone through it before. I was hoping that I'd have another 10 years to prepare for a situation like this.

I will keep everyone posted!


I was honestly hoping someone would say "nope, not at all possible" so I'd know for sure. :) But, I guess impossible situations turn out to be possible sometimes anyway. I have heard some strange breeding stories. :)


Thanks for all the help, everyone. Pray that she's not pregnant.

I am going to go ahead and prepare the owner as if Daisy were pregnant. Though, I have never walked anyone through it before. I was hoping that I'd have another 10 years to prepare for a situation like this.

I will most definitely keep her in my thoughts and pray she is not pregnant. Our thoughts are with you as well!

I have had girls go through heats without being bred who had mammary swelling that lasted for about a month before the swelling went down.
Hopefully this is what's going on with her girl.

You can avoid this problem in the future by asking for a vet certificate that the first pet is S/N before selling a second..

This is a full sibling breeding...same father and mother are full sisters..mother and her sister have the same genes..so it does not make it a half bro/sister..it would be best to have the female in question spayed asap.
Lesson learned.

Why not go ahead and spay the bitch? That way she won't have babies anyway....You can spay the bitch and that is what I would recommend...

Donna

Hey Donna, How you doing? How is your mom?

Mary

HI Mary, I'm hanging in and doing good...Mom is hanging in as well...just taking it a day at a time. But she's holding her own pretty good so far :)
Thanks for asking :)

Donna

Been thinking about you. Prayers are with you.

Mary

Thank you hon! I really appreicate it :) I'm ready for NY so I can have a break and let my brother take over for awhile :)

I don't see how it would be possible for him to sire any pups. The testicles are completely removed as well as the "tube" that pumps the sperm. He should not be able to ejaculate at all, i cannot see how that would be possible.

Also, I find it hard to believe he would be able to tie with her without some serious pain only 4 days after..

Maybe she let them breed before he got neutered. Why didn't she tell you the female was in heat before you sent her a male?? Sorry, sounds fishy to me.

Did she sign a contract saying she would have the female spayed? I would hold her to it and tell her she needs to have it done now.

I would have neutered the male before sending him at his age. Also, do you have proof he was neutered?

I require a copy of spay/neuter certificates and it must be done by 6 months.

Ditto....

He should have been neutered first, I agree. But, she wanted to do it with her vet, and we (yes, stuipdly), trusted her completely since there was a relationship there. In my gut, I have a feeling something is 'off', but I don't know anything for sure. Usually we require proof of spay/neuter before releasing akc papers (and, when she got the female, we weren't requiring proof, just giving limited registration), but I went ahead and sent the papers, limited of course, because we trusted her (not that having the limited akc papers makes a difference - she still can't register any puppies) and if she intended on breeding from the get-go, you'd think she would have 'tricked' us into an unrelated male.




Anyway, I knew I would get a lot of flak from this post, but I just wanted some advice.... I have been sick to my stomach for the last 3 days over this whole thing (it had an effect in the ring this weekend, too - I couldn't focus at all). I have told the owner that the best/ only option in my opinion is an immediate spay.



I guess, if nothing else, I have learned to neuter males before allowing them to leave. And, trusting someone is just not enough. We have to protect owners from themseves - even if the whole story is completely true, it could have all been avoided if Wyatt had been neutered first or if we had required proof of spay before placing another dog in the home.


More than anything, I hope someone else reads this and avoids a similar situation. I can't put in to words the torture this is causing me physically. I feel like a total failure and like I let the breed down... Maybe that's why I'm so sick over it...

Oh you are not a failure, nor are you perfect! I think we can all attest to the fact we have all made mistakes when it comes to breeding and selling dogs. As well as buying them.

Most likely it was not something she planned, and she is the one to blame for not having the female spayed. She could of gotten pregnant by any dog.

I have learned to not trust anyone because people lie for what you would think is no reason to. It is just best to have everything out in the open, and in a very detailed contract. Let people know they will be charged extra for not having the dog fixed.

My contract says if they do not do it by 6 months they will have to pay me up to $950.00 if they do not have them fixed. The charge is a breeding fee. I figure if they don't have the dog fixed then they must want to breed it. And it gives them something to think about before they try to screw me, because I will enforce it.

It's to bad we have to be so un-trusting. And even giving limited registration they can go to the one of the other registries and register the dog and still breed them. Of course they aren't worth as much but so many don't care.

What did she say when you told her you wanted the pup spayed now? I forgot how old you said she was but you might also tell her that having puppies this young is dangerous.

You can only do so much and I think you have done that. But really, don't beat yourself up over this.

I would also tell her that if she decides to allow her to have the pups that she either cannot sell them (has to give away with small adoption fee) or she can sell them but she has to give you 80%. She should not be allowed to make any money off the litter. That is my opinion however..

The breeder can register CKC (USA) ACA etc..more and more pet buyers no longer care about AKC papers. Limited AKC's mean nothing unfortunately...

Post 22....I would also tell her that if she decides to allow her to have the pups that she either cannot sell them (has to give away with small adoption fee) or she can sell them but she has to give you 80%. She should not be allowed to make any money off the litter. That is my opinion however..[/QUOTE]

JMO..I would not accept a penny from breeding this bitch to her brother...

The verdict was in last week ( I just forgot to post).

NOT pregnant! Thank GOD

Though, I have learned a more than valuable lesson here, that's for sure!

Thank you to everyone for the advice and letting me know how things SHOULD have gone. :)

Thanks for coming back to update us. I didn't think he would of been able to get her pg after being neutered. glad to hear she isn't.

I sure hope you have convinced them to get the female spayed NOW and not wait any longer;)