Originally Posted by yorkiegold

Stud owner fixes the fee. Stud dog owner approves the bitches. If you want the stud, you pay what they ask, get the genetic/health testing they require and sign whatever they ask you to sign.

Some people are breeding to make money and they'll breed to whatever's handy rather than paying a fair price to breed to a finished champion. It can cost $3,000 and up to finish a dog yourself and the sky's the limit if you hire a professional handler and campaign the dog nationally. The owner of a finished champion deserves every penny they get. Even though you may be able to get a champion sire with a 90% red pedigree (for what that's worth) for $650, I would rather pay more for the one that's producing champions, has years of careful health screening behind it, etc. Many serious breeders will ship their bitches half way across the continent to get the stud that's a perfect fit for their bitch regardless of what percent of the pedigree is red. I know Rottweiler champions that command $1,500 for a stud fee and no one blinks an eye.

But to the original poster's point, it can be a hassle to breed, your male will be nearly impossible to housetrain after breeding, even though you may decide to neuter him. Don't settle for less than you think it's worth to you personally. It's traditional (and recommended) for the bitch to come to the stud dog. Depending on travel distance issues, you may be required to keep the bitch over a period of several days. If one or the other is injured during the process (unlikely, but with a maiden bitch and virgin stud your chances go up) you will be responsible for getting whatever medical attention is needed. You would be responsible for keeping the bitch from being bred or hurt by any other male dog during this time which means Fort Knox security. Your boy will lose his tiny little mind for the 3-5 days time period the breeding will cover.

So don't do it for less than what it's worth to you. I don't care if you're overcharging for what you have or offering the bargain of the century, set the price that makes it worth the hassle to you. If the bitch owner doesn't like it, tell them to go find another stud.

CJ

Originally Posted by txshopper73

What Kimberly and Pat posted are similar and make sense. I didn't know the champion dog sperm was so reasonably priced. I assumed that for champion sperm, it would be in the thousands. With the stud that I'm planning on using, she charges pick of litter which is the going rate of $1000. Maybe it's just the part of the country I'm in, but males right now in Houston are going between $600-800 and females are $800-1200.

Originally Posted by sylvan

Don't get discouraged so quickly, every one of us was a newbie once too. You have to start somewhere. It is admirable that you are asking questions and trying to do the right thing. It is nice to want to help people get yorkies for their grandchildren, but you are just scraping the tip of the iceberg here with possible problems and that really isn't a sound reason to breed your dog. Unfortunately Yorkies are a tough breed to raise, lots of hazards, more to learn all the time. My stud boys do have issues that not everyone would want to deal with in a pet, so there is that to consider. I would say, if you seriously want to begin breeding, spend some more time learning everything you can about them and save up to buy some really terrific specimens, that you will be proud to produce quality pups with. Keep your Harley as the Team mascot and enjoy him as a terrific pet.

Originally Posted by txshopper73

females will generally always be higher because they "can" (not "should") be bred and therefore, you can make your money back on them. You really have to shop around and ask around too to find a good, reputable breeder.

Originally Posted by HisNameIsHarley

I would NEVER even consider charging anywhere near 1000 dollars for a stud fee or even consider paying for one either. Like I said before to everyone their own but personally I find that to be outrageous. Champion or no champion I don't believe it should cost that much. I appriciate everyones help on here. It's obvious that I'm a newbie and want all the help I can get. I am excited that someone is interested in breeding w/ my baby but I have a lot of reserved and worried feelings about it too. I don't want him to totally change just bc I breed him and I'm afraid of his personality and behavior turning upside down. For every new post I get on this thread I'm getting pushed farther and farther into the direction of never breeding him. I feel like such a loser bc I don't even understand what everyone means by "red in the pedigree".. I guess I'm just not ready for such a commitment. I'm lost. :cry:

Originally Posted by HisNameIsHarley

I'm just stumped as to how to ask around.. I know my breeders but that's only one..

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Another thing you should do is have the potential bitch checked by a vet to see if they are carrying any STDs. Bitches that have been studded out to many males have the potential to have STDs which can eventually sterilize your male. :thumbdown

Originally Posted by HisNameIsHarley

Ok, how about I go get Harley's sperm analyzed by the vet to find out if his 'swimmers' are A-ok and are capable of producing? See, I know that almost everyone has said not to use a newbie bitch w/ a newbie stud but I would think it would be alright on my part if I had my vet check on his 'swimmers' and if she said they were ok and the bitch produced no puppies we could be sure the proble wasn't w/ my male. Even if he checked out to be ok and they bred but she produced no puppies (and I got paid anyway) I am certain that I would still give them a freebie anyway. But maybe that's just me.

So is it wrong or right to charge the amount you paid for your male as the stud fee?

Originally Posted by feminvstr

Cj I dont understand you arguing a point that is a fact here. There are two local kennels I have use of their champion studs (proven and tested) and that have sired several champions!!!!! why would you assume these kennels are not testing their studs, paying the same amount for finishing their AKC and why are you dismissing the pedigree if you think the championship is so vital to a breeding program...you make no sense!

You state many serious breeders ship their bitches as do many serious breeder have flown in AI which is far less stress on the bitch and 90% effective in a breeding.

A champion is a champion is a champion if he is in the top 20 in the country then perhaps they can command the higher dollar but a AKC champion doesnt mean his sperm is gold!!

Finally why would you make a statement that some breeders breed to what ever is handy IT IS NOT a GUARANTEE a Champion sire will produce even one potential champion in a breeding. Ill bet more than a few AKC champions are a product of a non champion sire and dam breeding through out the country.

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Something that makes absolutely NO sense. You (YorkieGold) are expected (expecting) to pay $1000 + for stud services but yet you sell your pups for $1000? This is why I questioned about your lines. With prices like that, I'm going to have to assume that you don't breed champion pups? :confused:

Originally Posted by yorkiegold

Only amateurs count the percentage of "red". Why are you being so defensive?

CJ

Originally Posted by HisNameIsHarley

Well this female is a "virgin" in that department. But even if I had agreed to breeding w/ her I was going to require her to be vet checked and tested anyway. I think I've basically come to the decision to not ever breed Harley. I'm going to have to talk it over w/ my boyfriend when he gets back sunday night but I'm pretty much decided not to use him as a stud at all. I don't know about his background or whether he has any "red" in it either but I emailed my breeders to ask some questions. So I'm basically getting the impression that I shouldn't breed him for several reasons. Firstly, there's a huge chance that I could lose the personality of my Harley that I love so much. Secondly, his health could be in jeapardy. Thirdly, bc he might not be of high enough standards and might not have the best background.

Originally Posted by wnalegria

You are way of the mark. Just because the bitch did not produce a liter does not mean that the fault is hers. You may have bred her too soon or too late in her cycle. Your male may have ejaculated too soon and no sperm ended up inside the female.

You owe the owner of the bich a second breeding if no live puppies are the result of the breeding. No ifs and or buts. That is just common courtesy- I am sure that you would want one if you were in the other persons place.

Once again we are back on the same old train that is going to derail- hope that I am not on the tracks this time. You will be laughed out of town if you think that your stud fee is worth what you paid for your puppy unless you paid $400.00 or less for your puppy. I can get my females bred to top winning Champions whose show records are in the top 20 of this breed for $1,200.00. My one male who is finished as a UKC Champion and needs a major is not worth $1,200.00 I am charging $400.00 for him- have a son of a Best In show Winner ( who was in the top 20 for show record placements) he is priced at $400.00.

You had better have a outstanding dog with outstanding bloodlines- and a outstanding show record to think that you can step up to the big league.

If you have a average pet that you are wanting to use at stud - I advice clients that I would not pay over $250.00 to $300.00 to use that caliber of male. Hate to bust your bubble.

Originally Posted by yorkiegold

Just one last thought. Do you breed for a fee or a puppy? Doesn't giving a puppy for a stud fee make the stud fee equal to a puppy sale? You people are so ready for a fight.

CJ

Originally Posted by txshopper73

I'd be defensive too. In a couple of your previous posts, you seem to talk down to her. Don't all breeders start off as amateurs? Even experts have made mistakes, too. I don't know the history of you two, but I would have been upset, too.

Originally Posted by yorkiegold

I think you're thinking this through in a very sound way. I especially appreciate your concern that his personality will change. That's a very real probability and I'm impressed that you're that concerned about your relationship with him more than anything else. Good for you!

I wanted to apologize to you personally for the way your simple question evolved into a spitting match. People have very strong feelings about this.

CJ

Originally Posted by yorkiegold

Didn't dismiss the pedigree. Only amateurs count the percentage of "red".
You can't tell me anything about AI. Been there done that. However, it's not natural and there are many breeders who won't do it. That's not what we were talking about. I know you've done a lot of reading, Kim.

Talk about not making sense. You said that a champion is a champion, BUT if they're in the top 20, then maybe they can charge more. So you're admitting that some dogs command a higher stud fee because of their show record. So some ARE worth more?

Using the handiest stud is not good breeding practice whether he's a champion or not. Most good breeders study pedigrees, go to dog shows and meet the upcoming youngsters and make their decisions based on many things and consider the stud fee last.

I still maintain that using your dog as a stud dog is fraught with risk and hassle and a fee should be set that takes that into account.

"Traditionally" is the word I used that seems to have thrown you off of my point. The practice of charging a stud fee equal to cost of the progeny is traditional in the sense that it has been that way for hundreds of years. May not be that way in the year 2005 in Portland, Oregon. If you can get a great "deal" then go for it. Why are you being so defensive?

CJ

Originally Posted by HisNameIsHarley

Bust my bubble? Firstly there's no real need to be so blantantly rude to me. I have never bred before. And never charged a stud fee and never bred a female. This site was created to help people. People like me. So I posted my thread and asked my question and I've got A LOT of different questions from a lot of different people. Your response made me feel like I was some sort of inferior child. Everyone was a newbie once and I feel quite offended. I never said that I thought that charging the price of my puppy was the correct way of charging a stud fee. That's just the first thing that I was told by a local breeder. I wasn't sure so I asked. Like a good and intelligent person I wanted to know the truth so I went to the one place where I believed I could ask any question and get back answers w/o feeling like an idiot. (this was an English Bulldog breeder btw not a yorkie one- so maybe it's different in that breeding circle- those puppies start at 1,200 and that's the lowest price around here.. w/ no red in the petigree too) And another thing is I did say that if puppies weren't produced I would do another freebie breeding. I'm impressed that you have such stupendous dogs but mine is average but that doesn't make him nonexistent. And I had no intentions of "stepping up to the big league" w/ him. A couple wants to breed for a puppies for their grandchildren. That's it. I don't know what your intentions were in your response Wnalegria but whatever they were they hurt. You could have just told me the facts like everyone else instead of making me look and feel like a loser. :(

Originally Posted by feminvstr

Harley youre making the right choice. I am sure Kathy didnt mean any harm in what she posted she was merely pointing out the importance in making an educated decision in studding your little man.

Originally Posted by yorkiegold

I hope you'll go back and read the thread from the beginning. We all make mistakes when we try to play God which is what breeders are trying to do. I have a huge problem with breeders who are only breeding to make money and are in it as a "business". Just my own personal prejudice.

I didn't mean to talk down to anyone, but I did feel compelled to challenge some statments that were made.

CJ

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Well, Kimberly has been a great assett to YT. Her website is very informative and educational. I also know that Mercedes has great potential to finish in the show ring. Kimberly is a reputable breeder and takes great care in placing her pups.

I just don't like to see the condescending tone that you took with her. Treat people as you would like to be treated. Your tone of words really made you look to be a not-so-nice person. We're just all here to talk about our furbabies.

Originally Posted by HisNameIsHarley

Bust my bubble? Firstly there's no real need to be so blantantly rude to me. I have never bred before. And never charged a stud fee and never bred a female. This site was created to help people. People like me. So I posted my thread and asked my question and I've got A LOT of different questions from a lot of different people. Your response made me feel like I was some sort of inferior child. Everyone was a newbie once and I feel quite offended. I never said that I thought that charging the price of my puppy was the correct way of charging a stud fee. That's just the first thing that I was told by a local breeder. I wasn't sure so I asked. Like a good and intelligent person I wanted to know the truth so I went to the one place where I believed I could ask any question and get back answers w/o feeling like an idiot. (this was an English Bulldog breeder btw not a yorkie one- so maybe it's different in that breeding circle- those puppies start at 1,200 and that's the lowest price around here.. w/ no red in the petigree too) And another thing is I did say that if puppies weren't produced I would do another freebie breeding. I'm impressed that you have such stupendous dogs but mine is average but that doesn't make him nonexistent. And I had no intentions of "stepping up to the big league" w/ him. A couple wants to breed for a puppies for their grandchildren. That's it. I don't know what your intentions were in your response Wnalegria but whatever they were they hurt. You could have just told me the facts like everyone else instead of making me look and feel like a loser. :(

Originally Posted by wnalegria

Re read the the thread- I said that my dogs were not worth $1,200.00 for a stud fee. If I was trying yo make you feel inferior I would have stated that my dogs were better then yours and I did not do that.

Many folks on here give newbies a lot of crap and cause a lot of confusion. Stating that you are breeding Champion puppies because a judge bought one of your puppies does not mean you are breeding Champion puppies. I had a international judge look at two of my guys- was told that I should show them at international shows and that they should finish- does that mean I should advertise them as I am breeding international Champs- No way.

A lot of valuable information was gave to you- look at the archives this subject has been digested and spit up on many a occasion. The end result is that the newbie gets hurt feelings. Which would you rather have the person who pats you on the head and leads you down the wrong road with wrong and incorrect information or the person who cares enough about you to give you the information in clear simple black and white. Why waste words be direct and to the point.

We never discussed if you should breed the male or female - did they have something to add to the gene pool. What kind of faults do they have? Over the past thirty years I can not count the number of times I have heard- We just want puppies for family or friends and the puppies will be spayed or neutered. 60% of the time those puppies are bred when they become adults. They are never spayed or neutered. The stud is often sold because that wonderful mild mannered male is no longer housebroke and lifts his leg on anything that does not run away from him. If there is a female in heat for a week he is a walking penisaurs with naught for a brain.