Whelping and Fading Puppy Syndrome
 

I have 4 yorkies - all related. Mom and four pups. Three females, one male. One of my females is pregnant and brother is father. This happened one other time and puppies died. Looked like fading puppy syndrome. We bred the mother a couple of time with another Yorkie (not related) and her litters were fine.

1. What can I do to save them if they should start fading?
2. Is it because they were inbred (sister and brother)?
3. I had "onesies" (baby t-shirts that were snapped at all times) on both dogs when the female went into heat - so that they could not "tie" - watched them constantly - they had to get together sometime while we were sleeping - and go through the two t-shirts. Anyone ever hear of this one?

My husband and I love our yorkies - they are like our babies. We feel awful that this happened and just need some feedback as to what would be best for mom and pups - is there anything we can do to ensure that the pups live - either ahead of time or after they are born?



Thanks for any info anyone can give me!!!

Did you not learn to keep them separated after the first time?

I'm not understanding why you have 4 related dogs and none are fixed?

Good luck.

Here's this
Fading Puppies - Prevention and Treatment

Miss Emilyann. No need to get snippy. I have had two out of the four fixed and am working on getting the other two fixed if that makes you feel better. Believe me - I feel bad enough. My husband fell ill and needed a transplant (actually two of them) and I just have not had the time to get the remaining two fixed. Actually, I was going to get the female fixed and breed the male. That was our original plan. So, please stop with the snide remarks. I wouldn't have 4 Yorkies if I did not intend to take care of them. That is why I am asking....

By the way, thanks for the link.

We know of a dog that got to the female through his belly band and her panties and an x-pen. They are very single-minded when in heat.

I hope your puppies are born safely. Best wishes.

Well thank you Katelin!! I appreciate your concern. I guess they are single minded at that time come to think about it. I just couldn't believe that they got through the shirts - but, after I read your email - anything is possible!

I, too, hope my puppies are well. I am doing a lot of research and am trying to be totally prepared for this litter - I don't want to lose them. I see you really have a full house! Aren't they the best?

Hey, what do you think about the inbreeding? That really concerns me.

Camille

I have to seperate mine when the girls are in heat, I still bellyband and diaper, and put a gate on the door and close the door, they will stop at nothing when one is in heat:) How far along is your female. Did they just tie, if it has just been a few day, I would take her and get her spayed. :(

My little Scruffy is pretty far along. I just couldn't bear to get her fixed knowing that the pups were developing or were even in there. If it were a few days - that wouldn't be a problem. She is due in a couple of weeks from my calculations but it is just an estimate. I just want to make the best out of this situation. She is going to Vets on Tuesday. She is really tiny too. I just don't want to go through what I went through last time - it was heartbreaking!

Thanks for your concern as well.

If they have birth defects because on inbreeding there is not much you can do to save them.

I know things can happen but once shame on them twice shame on you.

To prevent this I'd send the male away with family for a few weeks. Better safe than sorry.

You cannot watch them 24/7 its a little hard.:rolleyes:

Inbreeding will bring out the worst or the best in a line and you never know which. it should not be done at all by the inexperienced and even breeders that are very experienced have almost stopped doing it.

How tiny is really tiny?

With inbreeding, breeding brother and sister is the worst thing you can do. Father to daugher or mother to son can sometimes produce nice results but all the experts say to never breed siblings. There is a good chance you will see genetic defects and there is nothing you can do to change that.

In the first litter, at what age did the pups start dying?

this is what i heard also as far as inline breeding. i was not gonna breed my female and male this heat because i didnt want winter puppies, well they had better things in mind. she excaped from her crate and jumped two gates stacked on top of one another to get to him!:eek: how did she get out of her cage???? she has no thumbs?????:eek: so never underestimate the drive they have to breed! she will be under lock and key next time. i hope your puppies do well this time and we all need to learn from mistakes.
renae

I didn't get snippy, I asked you a few questions.

From my understanding, a male gets his female genes from his mom. So, if you breed a brother to a sister, you're doubling up on those. That's why you're having problems.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

Brother to sister breedings mean that their genotypes are much more similar than would be dogs that are not as closely related. I don't know of anyone who purposefully does a sibling breeding because of the risks of doubling up on the genetic faults contained in those genotypes. You cannot get more closely related genetically than full siblings. Assuming that the puppies gorw up alive and well, when you place them I think you are under an obligation to be clear about the fact that their parents are full siblings and you need to be very upfront about any health issues either or both of the parents' has. Of course if they are young, that makes that difficult since many genetic diseases and disorders do not reveal themselves until the dogs are older.


Fading puppy syndrome is not a disease, but rather a description of symptoms that leads to the death of a puppy. When I think of entire litters passing, my thoughts immediately go to herpes virus, although of course there can be other causes. Herpes virus can cause absorption, mummy puppies, stillborns and also cause newborn puppies to die. Herpes virus is pretty harmless to adult dogs because their body temperature is high enough to allow them to fight it off. Herpes virus is very very common and most dogs will have it at some point in their life, and then after that first exposure they develop an immunity to it. I don't worry about it as much as many do because my girls are shown to their championships (or we give it a good effort!) before they are bred, and most likely they have been exposed to the virus at a dog show or at our local training building long before they are bred. If a dog developes an immunity to it before she is pregnant, the litter should be safe even if she is exposed to it while pregnant. If mom has not been exposed (and this is more likely to happen if your girl is not in contact with a lot of dogs in her first few years) and is therefore not immune, and the virus happens to make its way into your home during the last three weeks of her pregnancy OR the first three weeks of the newborn puppies' lives, then your litter is at risk. There is a vaccine that can be given to bitches prior to becoming pregnant, but it is not available in the US. From what I have read, if you believe that there was herpes virus exposure to a bitch with no immunity or to newborns, your best best is to keep the puppies very warm- 95 degrees is optimal for a few weeks. This means you will need to provide a way for mom to get out of that heat and you need to make sure the puppies are not getting dehydrated as well.

I know you do not need lectures right now : ) but no way, no how, are onesies enough protection to keep dogs from breeding. When I have a girl in season she is crated except for supervised time outdoors and in the house, during which time my boys are crated. When I am not home or am asleep, the female in heat is crated and also closed in a room, the boys are crated and closed in a separate room. Just some ideas for the future so this does not happen again.

As for the poster asking about having related animals that are intact, that is an interesting question. For me, my breeding program involves line breeding and out crossing, and so it benefits me to have half and full siblings, that are intact so that they might be bred to distantly related or unrelated dogs, and then subsequent generations can later be combined with their distant "cousins" at some point. For instance, say I have two unrelated "foundation" bitches. I breed one of the bitches to the father of the other bitch, and keep a bitch and a dog from that breeding. So now I have two bitches and a dog that are half siblings, the father of all three being an exceptional dog that I want to play an important part in my breeding plans. Now I would not breed the littermates obviously, and I would not breed the half brother and half sister. But, I might eventually breed their great grandchildren together, so as to optimize the dog that I am very fond of but at the same time to allow for outcrossing in the generations inbetween to maintain genetic diversity.

:thumbup: Very informative post.

I went to an AKC seminar on breeding, and they explained it this way. The female is XX the male is XY. The male gets his X solely from his mother. The female pulls her XX from her Mom and Dad. Now, in a Brother-Sister breeding.. Brother (100% female chromosone is Mom's) sister (50% Mom) is a whole bunch of Mom's Chromosones, possibly causing birth defects.
It is most important NEVER to breed Mother to Son. His Female Chromosones are his mothers. Especially since you have Mom and son, and accidents are happening.
I've never seen a whole litter fade, which is just a term, not the cause, but there is several things that would cause an early loss.. Ecoli, Cocci, chilled puppies, herpes, worms, just to name a few.
I wish you luck! And I would have that male neutered yesterday!

I'm sorry, I also meant to offer help if there are puppies coming. There are precautions and remedies if we know the ages of the puppies that died and the symptoms.

Well there is nothing to do now if you are not getting her spayed. So just wait and see what happens .. when they are born keep them warm and have kero syrup handy and make sure they nurse...Good luck.... I had a friend that had that to happen to her 3 times and hers was fine...then she had the money to fix them..Also if you are low on cash for the vet bill SPCA sometime will do it for free or a small charge..Good Luck:D

Wildcard, Is the Herpes Virus the Human Virus? And if so, how can it be transmitted to the Bitch? CamilleHy< I hope your Mom and babies are okay!

Nope it is different, it is a canine version for dogs and I think wolves can get it. My understanding is that it is usually transmitted by physical contact- sniffing, licking, or sexual contact, but there is a possibility it can be airborne, but I would think the dogs would have to be in pretty close contact for that because it is not a hearty virus. Best way to avoid problems is to keep bitches and litters isolated for about 3 weeks prior and 3 weeks after they are born. Once they are over 3 weeks most puppies can develop a fever to kill it off.

Usually a bitch develops an immunity to it and so if the first litter is affected, subsequent litters will not be, BUT I recently read that there is a possibility of a carrier status where a bitch can acquire and then maintain the virus without building up an immunity, but I am not sure how that actually works. I would think one way to know if that is the case with a particular bitch would be to titer test for it, something I would probably do if my bitch lost a litter to the virus but I wanted to breed her again.

I just want to thank you all for your input, expertise, concern and support. I truly appreciate it! Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am rather new to this so please bear with me.

One of you asked how old the puppy was when it died - it was about a week old. Was doing great until it stopped eating. There was a total of 2 pups in the litter and the first one was still born. It also seems harder to take care of only one baby - they don't have any other pups to warm up to and cuddle.

By the way, my Scruffy weighs about 3 lbs. She did well last time - even though one of the pups came out feet first.

Also, thanks for sharing your stories with me regarding your experiences with your yorkies "in heat."

:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa

So you really did mean tiny! I feel like you're really playing with fire here. I hope that things go well but I strongly encourage you to not let this happen to your little gal again. With each genetic shuffle you're playing russian roulette. Please think of her and the pups and get her neutered so that she's out of danger.

Hi Tami. I know, I know. I feel really bad about it. As I said before, my husband is recovering from a kidney transplant - and I have 3 teenagers as well. I know there really isn't an excuse - I just want to do what is best for mom and the pups - if there is such a thing now. Believe me, she will be spayed after this....

I think having a heating pad is essential when you have a litter of pups, especially in the winter time. If you don't have one then I recommend you get one before the pups are born. The one I use is specifically for puppies and it keeps the temperature around 100 degrees.

And you want a heating pad that does not turn off. Walgreen's has the heating pads that stay on continuously.

Thanks for the heating pad info - I have to say that I am totally on top on that one. I used heating pad for 3 other litters - they work great!

Also, I want you all to know that I am going to keep you posted on my babies. Due date is around Feb 1. I think I may even jump "online" when she goes into labor so that you all can help me out if I need it!

;):)

I understand you have a lot going on in your life right now, and don't need lectures, but this really upsets me.

I sincerely hope that you do not plan on selling these puppies.