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-   -   should I test before surgery? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/breeder-talk/120212-should-i-test-before-surgery.html)

PrincessLila 03-05-2008 05:41 PM
should I test before surgery?
 
Hi all,

So my baby Lila is 8 months old (I'm a new mom) and is scheduled to be spayed on 3/21. My vet suggests I do bile acid testing before the surgery. However, I can't afford the testing at this time. But I'm worried about the risks of anesthesia. Has anyone done the testing without pre-op lab work? Should I even risk it?

Also, the operation is being done at a low-cost clinic in my area, what do you guys think of those clinics? They never mentioned preoperative testing other than a physical exam. Please help because I'm very scared.

Lila's mom.

feminvstr 03-05-2008 05:46 PM
LS (bile acid testing) isnt necessary to be done before her spay, I would do the blood panel though.

best of luck

Brooklynn 03-05-2008 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessLila (Post 1826049)
Hi all,

So my baby Lila is 8 months old (I'm a new mom) and is scheduled to be spayed on 3/21. My vet suggests I do bile acid testing before the surgery. However, I can't afford the testing at this time. But I'm worried about the risks of anesthesia. Has anyone done the testing without pre-op lab work? Should I even risk it?

Also, the operation is being done at a low-cost clinic in my area, what do you guys think of those clinics? They never mentioned preoperative testing other than a physical exam. Please help because I'm very scared.

Lila's mom.
I haven't done a BAT's before spaying and all was fine :) I hope this helps!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

MissSophie 03-05-2008 06:22 PM
Since our baby had kidney issues when she was a very young puppy (she fine now and age six) we ALWAYS get blood work done before she has anything done. Yes, it isn't cheap, but it may have saved her life when we had her spayed. We thought her kidney issues were over, but blood work told us differently. We did fluids for several weeks before she finally had the surgery.

Ellie May 03-05-2008 07:13 PM
I really understand where you breeders are coming from when you say skip the BAT but the thing is YOU are GOOD breeders with healthy dogs. I wouldn't take a chance with a dog from a breeder who is just breeding for money and isn't doing testing.

Ladymom 03-05-2008 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 1826398)
I really understand where you breeders are coming from when you say skip the BAT but the thing is YOU are GOOD breeders with healthy dogs. I wouldn't take a chance with a dog from a breeder who is just breeding for money and isn't doing testing.
:thumbup:

It sounds like your vet is really up to date on the recommended protocol for breeds at a high risk for liver shunts. Yorkies are 36 times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined. Dr. Center recommends that all Yorkies get a bile acid test before even going to their new home.

A BAT is very inexpensive, about $40-80 depending on where you live. I would definitely get it done before her spay.

MyFairLacy 03-06-2008 01:43 AM
I highly recommend both a full blood panel and a bile acid test before a yorkie is put under for the first time. Yorkies are 36 times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined. From now on, I will never put one of my toy breed dogs under anesthesia for the first without having bloodwork done and a bile acid test. Even if your dog came from a very reputable breeder I still would rather be safe than sorry....liver shunt has been known to skip 10 generations so there's always a chance that it could pop up unexpectedly.

feminvstr 03-06-2008 07:32 AM
come on girls what does a BAT test have to do with surgery?

the OP asked if it was necessary before spaying ...answer is NO!

pre-op blood panel is recommended to assure liver and kidney are functioning properly, if there are any irregularities they will show up in the panel.

Ellie May 03-06-2008 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by feminvstr (Post 1827497)
come on girls what does a BAT test have to do with surgery?

the OP asked if it was necessary before spaying ...answer is NO!

pre-op blood panel is recommended to assure liver and kidney are functioning properly, if there are any irregularities they will show up in the panel.
It is thought that the ALT won't be excessively elevated until the liver is 70% damaged by a shunt.
A high BAT would change anesthetic protocol and the pain meds that are given.
Also, if it was high and a biopsy was necessary, it could be done at the same time.

Sidney 03-06-2008 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by feminvstr (Post 1827497)
come on girls what does a BAT test have to do with surgery?

the OP asked if it was necessary before spaying ...answer is NO!

pre-op blood panel is recommended to assure liver and kidney are functioning properly, if there are any irregularities they will show up in the panel.
That is what I was wondering....:confused:

feminvstr 03-06-2008 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 1827673)
It is thought that the ALT won't be excessively elevated until the liver is 70% damaged by a shunt.
A high BAT would change anesthetic protocol and the pain meds that are given.
Also, if it was high and a biopsy was necessary, it could be done at the same time.

the abnormalties would show up in the blood panel...logic here, if there is irregularities then test further! She can always do a BAT for peace of mind later, as I said for a simple spay IT IS NOT NECESSARY

Ellie May 03-06-2008 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by feminvstr (Post 1827702)
the abnormalties would show up in the blood panel...logic here, if there is irregularities then test further! She can always do a BAT for peace of mind later, as I said for a simple spay IT IS NOT NECESSARY
Ellie's bile acids went up to 106 (don't know why) and her ALT was 118 but at last check was 43.
If a blood panel showed irregularities it would be one thing, but it doesn't show liver function specifically which a BAT would.

I guess this is something everyone has to decide for themselves but I'd hate to see a Yorkie with a normal blood panel be put under and end up reacting to the drugs used.

MyFairLacy 03-06-2008 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by feminvstr (Post 1827702)
the abnormalties would show up in the blood panel...logic here, if there is irregularities then test further! She can always do a BAT for peace of mind later, as I said for a simple spay IT IS NOT NECESSARY
I think it's necessary. I mean, yes, the dog will most likely do fine having no bloodwork or BAT at all...dogs are put under all the time without these and do fine. But if it were MY dog, I'd rather be safe than sorry..I'd hate for HER to be the one in whatever number that dies on the table because she has a problem that could have been detected in a blood panel or BAT. I guess if someone wants to take that chance...then no, it isn't necessary

YorkieRose 03-06-2008 10:57 AM
spay
 
I have never done any pre-surgery testing on a young, non-symtomatic Yorkie before spaying/neutering. I have never had a problem crop up for not doing any tests.

feminvstr 03-06-2008 11:03 AM
:thumbup:

Ladymom 03-06-2008 11:07 AM
We've had two Maltese puppies just in the past six weeks on another forum I belong have normal ALT values with a CBC before going home who later had elevated bile acids with a pre neuter BAT. In both cases they were retested in 4 weeks, had protein C tests, then diagnosed with asymptomatic MVD.

I've posted this before, but this is Dr. Center's recommendation from page 22 of the handout from her lectures:

2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography.

It sounds to me like the OP's vet is very up to date on current protocol. If a BAT wasn't done earlier and her vet is now recommending one before her spay, what would be the argument not to get one done?

Ellie May 03-06-2008 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladymom (Post 1828363)
We've had two Maltese puppies just in the past six weeks on another forum I belong have normal ALT values with a CBC before going home who later had elevated bile acids with a pre neuter BAT. In both cases they were retested in 4 weeks, had protein C tests, then diagnosed with asymptomatic MVD.

I've posted this before, but this is Dr. Center's recommendation from page 22 of the handout from her lectures:

2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography.

It sounds to me like the OP's vet is very up to date on current protocol. If a BAT wasn't done earlier and her vet is now recommending one before her spay, what would be the argument not to get one done?



Wow, I bet they're glad they checked.

Ladymom 03-06-2008 12:12 PM
I forgot to mention that both these puppies were from two different show breeders with wonderful reputations, not backyard breeders. Both parents had normal BAT's as part of their health clearances, but apparently they were carriers.

I pray Dr. Center gets approved for her grant from the AKC so she can go forward with her genotyping research.

For those of you who haven't seen this, here is a letter from the YTCA about Dr. Center's grant proposal:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

PrincessLila 03-06-2008 05:04 PM
Thanks everyone for your advice. I've decided I'd rather not have any surprise post-op complications and will go ahead with testing. I called Lila's vet today to move forward. Will let you know her results...

Ladymom 03-06-2008 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessLila (Post 1829373)
Thanks everyone for your advice. I've decided I'd rather not have any surprise post-op complications and will go ahead with testing. I called Lila's vet today to move forward. Will let you know her results...

:thumbup:

Keep us posted.

kalina82 03-06-2008 05:24 PM
when i had morgan spayed i did not do pre-op bloodwork or a BAT. She still hasn't had a BAT. If the puppy is healthy and has never shown any signs of illness then i wouldn't worry about the BAT. its not a common practice to BAT a puppy, even a yorkie puppy, before a common surgery.

a regular blood panel will show SOMETHING is abnormal, and a good vet will then look further into it.

JMHO


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