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FlDebra · 12-18-2010, 10:03 AM

Emma -- pls do not feel bad -- you did not start anything, many threads take a turn or two along the way. You aren't responsible for all that winds up being posted. The debate on off-color yorkies in ongoing. They are not recognized, and despite someone saying there was rumor into allowing them to show -- I doubt it, as the AKC and YTCA have recently made very clear the off colors are instant disqualifiers. If they were considering a change, I do not think they would have just come out and clarified the disqualification.

I stayed off line yesterday and really did not want to post in a contentious thread today but since my name keeps getting thrown around .... I guess I will respond.

I do not see how anyone would question the existance of chocolate or gold yorkies (And I have never seen anyone question it so I don't understand the comment made earlier)-- they are a fact of life. No good breeder wants to see the mutation show up in their line, but they do occasionally -- very occasionally if truly by accident tho. The ones advertising they produce them are actually breeding for the fault.

Here is an article about some of the genetics involved in blue, chocolate, golden, red yorkies. Top Genetics Chocolate Yorkies Red Golden or Blue Born

As for parti's -- I have seen more bonafie references showing the impossibility of white naturally occuring in modern yorkies than I have seen supporting it. I have read plenty on both sides. Surprisingly some of the articles showing conflicting information look authentic. Without a degree in canine genetics, I don't think you can know for sure, only use your best logic with the information presented. After carefuly perusal, I chose to believe there is no white in the authentic Yorkshire Terrier lines. You have to follow the references that give the true genetic information/background/history. I believe there are parti breeders that truly believe their dog is 100% yorkie. But I also believe somewhere back in their background, another breed entered the picture. There are so many lines that have NEVER (in over a hundred years) produced a parti that I cannot believe it is a natural occurance.

We all know there are unethical breeders that have used papers to register dogs that did not have the parents listed. Mills and BYB with so many dogs often have litters sired by more than one dog. Accidents happen. I don't think I would fully trust a breeder with more than one breed at a time unless I KNEW them and the safeguards they had in place. So in the yorkshire terrier gene pool, there are accidents, genes of white-coated breeds that may come out if you have lines that were not well-monitored along the way. Only recently was any DNA testing required or even available. So, for anyone to think the sudden emergence of these "parti dogs" is anything other than the results of old mistakes (and purposeful cross-breeding) is ludicrous IMO. If they occur naturally, they would occur in the quality lines as well as the hobby-breeder lines and they do not.

Another reason I do not like the idea of parti's is that they sometimes throw "yorkie-looking puppies" -- those unaware of the history, could very well think they had a full-blooded yorkie and are often given papers to say so. Then that person decides to breed, and wonders where those puppies with so much white on them came from!

Or maybe they too think they just had one of those miracle "naturally-occuring" partis.

I think there are more breeders selling partis at this time that are purposefully "making their own partis" than there are the honest ones who only breed from the parti's they have bought that way. You can see it in the "look" they are selling. Some are losing the yorkie features entirely. I recently looked at one site selling yorkies, maltese and parti's -- the partis no longer had a yorkie look at all! Some look more yorkie except for color, so they are probably pure in the last several generations. Still, as long as the YTCA and AKC refuse to accept them, I don't want anything to do with them -- as beautiful as I might think they look, it is not the yorkie look. I think a maltese is beautiful too, but not a yorkie. I have seen chocolate yorkies that were so adorable I wanted to melt right there. But.... they are a mutation and not to be bred. If an ethical breeder had one accidently in her litter, I might be willing to take one as a pet, but never if it was purposefully bred from mutated parents.

I think asking if "ethical breeders" kill off the off-color yorkie pups in their litters is trying to stir the pot/start trouble, etc. There is no way an ethical breeder is going to kill any puppy because of a color fault!! Maybe a hundred years ago when dogs were thought of as no more than livestock but even then, I dare say the ones doing something like that would not be thought of as ethical. What the ethical breeders will do, is not make the same paired mating if they wind up with an off-color pup to ensure it never happens again. Most will never breed either of the dogs involved again, some will just make sure not to make the same pairing.

Some of what you read is opinion, some is verifiable fact. If these issues are important to you -- read a lot on the subject. There has been a proliferation of online writing about the validity of parti's but most of it is just repeating the same thing another breeder wrote. So, don't confuse the quantity of information with the quality of information available. Read the actual genetic information, the science, the history of the yorkshire terrier, the AKC and YTCA sites -- find sites that give bonafide information with references duly noted. USE LOGIC. I also make it a habit not to take any information from those financially profiting from the sale of the off-color pups. They have too much to gain to "authenticate" their puppies any way they can.

12-18-2010, 10:03 AM	#35
FlDebra Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: FL Posts: 7,651	Emma -- pls do not feel bad -- you did not start anything, many threads take a turn or two along the way. You aren't responsible for all that winds up being posted. The debate on off-color yorkies in ongoing. They are not recognized, and despite someone saying there was rumor into allowing them to show -- I doubt it, as the AKC and YTCA have recently made very clear the off colors are instant disqualifiers. If they were considering a change, I do not think they would have just come out and clarified the disqualification. I stayed off line yesterday and really did not want to post in a contentious thread today but since my name keeps getting thrown around .... I guess I will respond. I do not see how anyone would question the existance of chocolate or gold yorkies (And I have never seen anyone question it so I don't understand the comment made earlier)-- they are a fact of life. No good breeder wants to see the mutation show up in their line, but they do occasionally -- very occasionally if truly by accident tho. The ones advertising they produce them are actually breeding for the fault. Here is an article about some of the genetics involved in blue, chocolate, golden, red yorkies. Top Genetics Chocolate Yorkies Red Golden or Blue Born As for parti's -- I have seen more bonafie references showing the impossibility of white naturally occuring in modern yorkies than I have seen supporting it. I have read plenty on both sides. Surprisingly some of the articles showing conflicting information look authentic. Without a degree in canine genetics, I don't think you can know for sure, only use your best logic with the information presented. After carefuly perusal, I chose to believe there is no white in the authentic Yorkshire Terrier lines. You have to follow the references that give the true genetic information/background/history. I believe there are parti breeders that truly believe their dog is 100% yorkie. But I also believe somewhere back in their background, another breed entered the picture. There are so many lines that have NEVER (in over a hundred years) produced a parti that I cannot believe it is a natural occurance. We all know there are unethical breeders that have used papers to register dogs that did not have the parents listed. Mills and BYB with so many dogs often have litters sired by more than one dog. Accidents happen. I don't think I would fully trust a breeder with more than one breed at a time unless I KNEW them and the safeguards they had in place. So in the yorkshire terrier gene pool, there are accidents, genes of white-coated breeds that may come out if you have lines that were not well-monitored along the way. Only recently was any DNA testing required or even available. So, for anyone to think the sudden emergence of these "parti dogs" is anything other than the results of old mistakes (and purposeful cross-breeding) is ludicrous IMO. If they occur naturally, they would occur in the quality lines as well as the hobby-breeder lines and they do not. Another reason I do not like the idea of parti's is that they sometimes throw "yorkie-looking puppies" -- those unaware of the history, could very well think they had a full-blooded yorkie and are often given papers to say so. Then that person decides to breed, and wonders where those puppies with so much white on them came from! Or maybe they too think they just had one of those miracle "naturally-occuring" partis. I think there are more breeders selling partis at this time that are purposefully "making their own partis" than there are the honest ones who only breed from the parti's they have bought that way. You can see it in the "look" they are selling. Some are losing the yorkie features entirely. I recently looked at one site selling yorkies, maltese and parti's -- the partis no longer had a yorkie look at all! Some look more yorkie except for color, so they are probably pure in the last several generations. Still, as long as the YTCA and AKC refuse to accept them, I don't want anything to do with them -- as beautiful as I might think they look, it is not the yorkie look. I think a maltese is beautiful too, but not a yorkie. I have seen chocolate yorkies that were so adorable I wanted to melt right there. But.... they are a mutation and not to be bred. If an ethical breeder had one accidently in her litter, I might be willing to take one as a pet, but never if it was purposefully bred from mutated parents. I think asking if "ethical breeders" kill off the off-color yorkie pups in their litters is trying to stir the pot/start trouble, etc. There is no way an ethical breeder is going to kill any puppy because of a color fault!! Maybe a hundred years ago when dogs were thought of as no more than livestock but even then, I dare say the ones doing something like that would not be thought of as ethical. What the ethical breeders will do, is not make the same paired mating if they wind up with an off-color pup to ensure it never happens again. Most will never breed either of the dogs involved again, some will just make sure not to make the same pairing. Some of what you read is opinion, some is verifiable fact. If these issues are important to you -- read a lot on the subject. There has been a proliferation of online writing about the validity of parti's but most of it is just repeating the same thing another breeder wrote. So, don't confuse the quantity of information with the quality of information available. Read the actual genetic information, the science, the history of the yorkshire terrier, the AKC and YTCA sites -- find sites that give bonafide information with references duly noted. USE LOGIC. I also make it a habit not to take any information from those financially profiting from the sale of the off-color pups. They have too much to gain to "authenticate" their puppies any way they can. __________________ FlDebra and her ABCs Annie, Ben, Candy Promoting Healthy Breeding to the AKC Yorkshire Terrier Standard Last edited by FlDebra; 12-18-2010 at 10:06 AM.