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Belle Noir · 08-12-2011, 09:33 PM

That is a fallacious argument. Because you don't agree with my position, I must not know what showing is all about.

Rest assured, I DO know the purpose of showing a dog. Just because I am new to yorkies doesn't mean I am new to dogs. In my breed, I have shown, had top winning dogs, and mentored many people in showing.
I just have never shown AKC, which is a whole different bag of politics, lol.
I began when I was 10, had to stop when I was 28, and at 35, I am beginning again in a new venue, but that doesn't mean I have lost what I have learned.

Let's be VERY blunt

Showing dogs IS all about the ribbons. It's ALL about who has the prettiest dog.
You can say it's not, but the simple FACT that NO dog has to produce a SINGLE health test in order to get it's championship shows that it is.
OTHERWISE, the AKC could simply make it a rule.
Your dog doesn't get point credit for the next year of shows until you provide a CERF for that dog.
Your dog cannot be awarded championship, unless your dog is HD fair or better.
The AKC COULD implement ANY rule it wanted about REQUIRING minimal health tests for the diseases a breed is known for, before allowing that dog to have it's championship acknowledged, but it won't.
Because in the end, it's ALL about who has the dog that best fits it's standard, and NOT about the genetic health of the dog, OR of the breed.
That is where we breeders who truly care about our breed, short and long term comes in.
WE are the ones that decided, no, we're not going to breed defective dogs. We are going to breed the best to the best, and that includes GENETIC best. And ANYONE that does not do the best they can for their future breeding stock by testing their dogs, and eliminating from the gene pool genetic defects, or worse, deliberately breed together dogs that you KNOW will produce genetic defects.. Even if that genetic defect produces award winning top of the line show pups.. is NOT in ANY way a reputable, OR ethical breeder, even if they are not breaking any of their club rules.

The AKC doesn't ask for, or require any health tests to be done on any dog that it registers or issues championship certificates for. The ONLY thing it issues certs for are the dogs that... what?
Are the best representatives of their breed according to their breed standard (or current fad), and THAT is all about what dog is the prettiest.

You say
"At this point, the AKC has zero plans to admit any new "breeds"

Check out the AKC Miscellaneous class.
Chinook
And in their own breed club
Chinook Cross Breeding Program
From the Wiki
The registry has a cross-breeding program under which Chinooks are bred to individuals of other breeds thought to have contributed to Chinook development; fourth-generation backcross descendants of such crosses may be accepted as UKC purebred Chinooks if they meet the Chinook Owner Association's CrossBreeding Program requirements.

Granted that is UKC, I am sure the AKC has closed their studbooks now.

Also
The Dogo. Which is very much a crossed bred dog.

And looking at the FSS
Czechoslovakian Vlcak
From the wiki
The Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is a relatively new breed of dog that traces its original lineage to an experiment conducted in 1955 in Czechoslovakia. After initially breeding 48 working line German Shepherd Dogs with 5 Eurasian wolves, a plan was worked out to create a wolf-dog hybrid that would have the temperament, pack mentality, and trainability of the German Shepherd Dog and the strength, physical build, and stamina of the Eurasian wolf. The breed was engineered to assist with border patrol in Czechoslovakia but were later also used in search and rescue, schutzhund, tracking, herding, agility, obedience, and drafting.

So the AKC has in it's FSS a breed that is nothing more than a GSD/Wolf cross from an experiment beginning 1955.

The Eurasier
From the wiki
Eurasiers originated in Germany in 1960, when the founder, Julius Wipfel, set out together with Charlotte Baldamus and a small group of enthusiasts to create a breed with the best qualities of the Chow Chow and the Wolfspitz. The initial combination of the breeds resulted in what was first called "Wolf-Chow" and then, twelve years later, after crossing with a Samoyed, was renamed "[Eurasier]" (Eurasian) and recognized by the FCI in 1973.

Miniature American Shepherd
From the parent club site MASCUSA
"The Miniature American Shepherd Club of the USA (MASCUSA) was selected in May 2011 as the parent club of the Miniature American Shepherd for the American Kennel Club. The breed was formed by a split of the Australian Shepherd breed in AKC, and the incorporation of dogs previously known as Miniature Australian Shepherds and also known as North American Shepherds. MASCUSA was originally known as the Miniature Australian Shepherd Club of the USA, and then the North American Miniature Australian Shepherd Club of the USA, and was founded in 1990 as original parent club for the Miniature Australian Shepherd"

Russian Toy
American Kennel Club - Russian Toy History
The Wiki
"Towards the start of the 20th century, the English Toy Terrier was one of the most popular toy dog breeds in Russia. Between 1920 and 1950, their numbers were greatly diminished following the October Revolution as these types of dogs were linked to the aristocracy and frowned upon. When the breeding was re-started almost all of the dogs used had no pedigrees or were even purebred.
The original long haired Russkiy is considered to be a dog named Chikki who was born on 12 October 1958 from two smooth haired terriers. One its parents had no recorded pedigree, but had slightly longer hair than normal. Chikki was mated with a female named Irma, who had longer hair than normal and together they had three long haired puppies."

This is just from me checking out the Miscellaneous class and FSS dogs on the AKC site, and pointing out breed I myself knew to be relatively new and crossbred dogs.
So I then would ask you, when does a "breed" not become new any longer?
I again point to the Cockpoo Club of America Cockapoo Club of America
On theior first page they state
"The Cockapoo Club of America is dedicated to protecting and promoting this superior hybrid, encouraging and supporting its members and member breeders, and to preserving and perpetuating the Cockapoo as a breed unto its own. We do this by educating both the public and breeders, and encouraging meticulous breeding standards of successive generations."

I may disagree with their subject statement of it being a "superior hybrid" but I cannot find fault with that, especially when you look further down and see..
"Breeders are being encouraged to produce successive generations and to keep detailed breeding records that will be able to stand the scrutiny required for our upcoming registry. "

And indeed, you have a few people working on 3rd and 4th generations, as they should, to produce a new breed. Again, I cannot find fault with that, as they are beginning to put together their blueprint of a new breed, working on a standard, and beginning to register their dogs and pedigrees.
At what point do these hybrids become a new breed in of themselves? My mother was born 1955. She grew up with a Cockapoo by the name of Curly. Both his mother and father were Cockapoos. When I was very very young my godmother, who grew up with my mother (they are like sisters) had a dog that was a direct descendent of Curly, (who Aunt Kitten also grew up with). This dog, whose name I cannot for the life of me remember, was born from multi generations of cockapoos.
At what point are they not just designer dogs and are a breed unto themselves?
That is what the Cockapoo Club of America is working towards.

As for your last comment..
"I'm sure this would bring up an interesting debate over on the Maltese boards, too."
In other words, you are implying that I am myself one of the people that would cross breed yorkies and maltese, because IMO, I think that there are people that can do it, do it right, and still be reputable, or ethical?
If not, why would you suggest I take my opinions to the Maltese boards?

What is seems to me, is that you are discounting everything that I have to say, because you have wrongly come to the conclusion that I am a "designer dog greeder".
Instead, I am one that stands outside the box, I come to my own conclusions after researching on my own, I don't follow trend, I don't care about fads.
And I am not one to condemn people because they do not do what I would have them do.

I have already shown how we have well known recognized breeds that have split into their own breeds, and I have shown how the AKC IS indeed recognizing (relatively) new breeds or at least working towards that (with FSS recognition).

I stand by my opinion.
IF a person is doing ALL the needed health tests for the parent breeds. IF that person carefully screens their buys.
IF someone has a lifetime return policy for their pups.
IF they have REAL health guarantees on their pups.
IF they are doing EVERYTHING that a reputable breeder of show dogs is doing, EXCEPT they are crossing their dogs, and thus, they cannot have show dogs...
How are they not a reputable breeder.

Your answer is because they are not bettering a show breed. I understand your point. I just don't happen to agree.

08-12-2011, 09:33 PM	#168
Belle Noir YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Reading, PA, USA Posts: 258	That is a fallacious argument. Because you don't agree with my position, I must not know what showing is all about. Rest assured, I DO know the purpose of showing a dog. Just because I am new to yorkies doesn't mean I am new to dogs. In my breed, I have shown, had top winning dogs, and mentored many people in showing. I just have never shown AKC, which is a whole different bag of politics, lol. I began when I was 10, had to stop when I was 28, and at 35, I am beginning again in a new venue, but that doesn't mean I have lost what I have learned. Let's be VERY blunt Showing dogs IS all about the ribbons. It's ALL about who has the prettiest dog. You can say it's not, but the simple FACT that NO dog has to produce a SINGLE health test in order to get it's championship shows that it is. OTHERWISE, the AKC could simply make it a rule. Your dog doesn't get point credit for the next year of shows until you provide a CERF for that dog. Your dog cannot be awarded championship, unless your dog is HD fair or better. The AKC COULD implement ANY rule it wanted about REQUIRING minimal health tests for the diseases a breed is known for, before allowing that dog to have it's championship acknowledged, but it won't. Because in the end, it's ALL about who has the dog that best fits it's standard, and NOT about the genetic health of the dog, OR of the breed. That is where we breeders who truly care about our breed, short and long term comes in. WE are the ones that decided, no, we're not going to breed defective dogs. We are going to breed the best to the best, and that includes GENETIC best. And ANYONE that does not do the best they can for their future breeding stock by testing their dogs, and eliminating from the gene pool genetic defects, or worse, deliberately breed together dogs that you KNOW will produce genetic defects.. Even if that genetic defect produces award winning top of the line show pups.. is NOT in ANY way a reputable, OR ethical breeder, even if they are not breaking any of their club rules. The AKC doesn't ask for, or require any health tests to be done on any dog that it registers or issues championship certificates for. The ONLY thing it issues certs for are the dogs that... what? Are the best representatives of their breed according to their breed standard (or current fad), and THAT is all about what dog is the prettiest. You say "At this point, the AKC has zero plans to admit any new "breeds" Check out the AKC Miscellaneous class. Chinook And in their own breed club Chinook Cross Breeding Program From the Wiki The registry has a cross-breeding program under which Chinooks are bred to individuals of other breeds thought to have contributed to Chinook development; fourth-generation backcross descendants of such crosses may be accepted as UKC purebred Chinooks if they meet the Chinook Owner Association's CrossBreeding Program requirements. Granted that is UKC, I am sure the AKC has closed their studbooks now. Also The Dogo. Which is very much a crossed bred dog. And looking at the FSS Czechoslovakian Vlcak From the wiki The Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is a relatively new breed of dog that traces its original lineage to an experiment conducted in 1955 in Czechoslovakia. After initially breeding 48 working line German Shepherd Dogs with 5 Eurasian wolves, a plan was worked out to create a wolf-dog hybrid that would have the temperament, pack mentality, and trainability of the German Shepherd Dog and the strength, physical build, and stamina of the Eurasian wolf. The breed was engineered to assist with border patrol in Czechoslovakia but were later also used in search and rescue, schutzhund, tracking, herding, agility, obedience, and drafting. So the AKC has in it's FSS a breed that is nothing more than a GSD/Wolf cross from an experiment beginning 1955. The Eurasier From the wiki Eurasiers originated in Germany in 1960, when the founder, Julius Wipfel, set out together with Charlotte Baldamus and a small group of enthusiasts to create a breed with the best qualities of the Chow Chow and the Wolfspitz. The initial combination of the breeds resulted in what was first called "Wolf-Chow" and then, twelve years later, after crossing with a Samoyed, was renamed "[Eurasier]" (Eurasian) and recognized by the FCI in 1973. Miniature American Shepherd From the parent club site MASCUSA "The Miniature American Shepherd Club of the USA (MASCUSA) was selected in May 2011 as the parent club of the Miniature American Shepherd for the American Kennel Club. The breed was formed by a split of the Australian Shepherd breed in AKC, and the incorporation of dogs previously known as Miniature Australian Shepherds and also known as North American Shepherds. MASCUSA was originally known as the Miniature Australian Shepherd Club of the USA, and then the North American Miniature Australian Shepherd Club of the USA, and was founded in 1990 as original parent club for the Miniature Australian Shepherd" Russian Toy American Kennel Club - Russian Toy History The Wiki "Towards the start of the 20th century, the English Toy Terrier was one of the most popular toy dog breeds in Russia. Between 1920 and 1950, their numbers were greatly diminished following the October Revolution as these types of dogs were linked to the aristocracy and frowned upon. When the breeding was re-started almost all of the dogs used had no pedigrees or were even purebred. The original long haired Russkiy is considered to be a dog named Chikki who was born on 12 October 1958 from two smooth haired terriers. One its parents had no recorded pedigree, but had slightly longer hair than normal. Chikki was mated with a female named Irma, who had longer hair than normal and together they had three long haired puppies." This is just from me checking out the Miscellaneous class and FSS dogs on the AKC site, and pointing out breed I myself knew to be relatively new and crossbred dogs. So I then would ask you, when does a "breed" not become new any longer? I again point to the Cockpoo Club of America Cockapoo Club of America On theior first page they state "The Cockapoo Club of America is dedicated to protecting and promoting this superior hybrid, encouraging and supporting its members and member breeders, and to preserving and perpetuating the Cockapoo as a breed unto its own. We do this by educating both the public and breeders, and encouraging meticulous breeding standards of successive generations." I may disagree with their subject statement of it being a "superior hybrid" but I cannot find fault with that, especially when you look further down and see.. "Breeders are being encouraged to produce successive generations and to keep detailed breeding records that will be able to stand the scrutiny required for our upcoming registry. " And indeed, you have a few people working on 3rd and 4th generations, as they should, to produce a new breed. Again, I cannot find fault with that, as they are beginning to put together their blueprint of a new breed, working on a standard, and beginning to register their dogs and pedigrees. At what point do these hybrids become a new breed in of themselves? My mother was born 1955. She grew up with a Cockapoo by the name of Curly. Both his mother and father were Cockapoos. When I was very very young my godmother, who grew up with my mother (they are like sisters) had a dog that was a direct descendent of Curly, (who Aunt Kitten also grew up with). This dog, whose name I cannot for the life of me remember, was born from multi generations of cockapoos. At what point are they not just designer dogs and are a breed unto themselves? That is what the Cockapoo Club of America is working towards. As for your last comment.. "I'm sure this would bring up an interesting debate over on the Maltese boards, too." In other words, you are implying that I am myself one of the people that would cross breed yorkies and maltese, because IMO, I think that there are people that can do it, do it right, and still be reputable, or ethical? If not, why would you suggest I take my opinions to the Maltese boards? What is seems to me, is that you are discounting everything that I have to say, because you have wrongly come to the conclusion that I am a "designer dog greeder". Instead, I am one that stands outside the box, I come to my own conclusions after researching on my own, I don't follow trend, I don't care about fads. And I am not one to condemn people because they do not do what I would have them do. I have already shown how we have well known recognized breeds that have split into their own breeds, and I have shown how the AKC IS indeed recognizing (relatively) new breeds or at least working towards that (with FSS recognition). I stand by my opinion. IF a person is doing ALL the needed health tests for the parent breeds. IF that person carefully screens their buys. IF someone has a lifetime return policy for their pups. IF they have REAL health guarantees on their pups. IF they are doing EVERYTHING that a reputable breeder of show dogs is doing, EXCEPT they are crossing their dogs, and thus, they cannot have show dogs... How are they not a reputable breeder. Your answer is because they are not bettering a show breed. I understand your point. I just don't happen to agree.