[kjc]

Originally Posted by 107barney

That is just amazing to me. Your vet said not to vaccinate a LS dog for lepto, but forgot to tell you to do an ultrasound of the abdomen which would have discovered the shunt and the kidney stones that Tink has? I have to say I don't think I'd personally place a lot of weight in that one's opinion. Just saying.

This makes the 12th time I've been misquoted.

Originally Posted by 107barney

So if these dogs were given a combo vaccine DHLPP and had reactions, isn't it fair to say it is impossible to know which portion of the vaccine the dog reacted to? The dog may have reacted to Distemper, and the owner may have thought it was lepto, possibly because of what they previously read on YT which also could have been mistaken (and that is how anecdotal evidence gets "developed").

I'll play.... One would have to compare 2 similar groups of dogs, one group that got the DHLPP, and the other group that got the DHPP, and if the occurance of reaction was the same in both groups, yes, it would be impossible.

But, if the percentage of reactions to the vaccine was way higher in the group that got the DHLPP, that would make me very suspicious of the Lepto portion being the cause.

And as I know you know, the only way to difinitively tell is by giving the Lepto separately, which is recommended because of it's history of causing reactions.

And just to note, the new lepto came out in 2004 as you stated, the date on the article (written by a vet) citing Lepto vac reactions in small dogs... was published in 2008. So that still leaves me to question it's claimed 'safer' status...

Originally Posted by 107barney

My dogs lie around after veterinarian visits in general. The day I started Teddy on his seizure medication was the day we had a vet visit (not a vaccine visit) and we became very alarmed that this new drug was making him catatonic. Turns out the little guy was pooped from his outing. I have never in all 11 years now of vaccinating my two yorkies for core and noncore vaccines see them lay around any more than they would have otherwise from any outing.

Nice to know, but mine are only knocked out on 'vaccine' visits, and soreness and malaise has lasted up to 3 days too. My bigger dogs do recover quicker though. That's why I believe vaccines should be adjusted according to the dog's weight, not given as a one-size-fits-all.

Originally Posted by 107barney

I don't think anyone misquoted you. There was one point we might have misunderstood you. You clarified your statement. But, you continued to say that dogs will have higher liver enzyme elevations after the lepto vaccine than a dog who has a liver shunt. We asked for the information upon which you relied, and you produced a lot of things that are interesting for discussion but none that answered the exact statement you made. The articles you point to do not say what you say they do. There is no credible statement or article in a veterinary journal stating that leptospirosis vaccine will raise the liver enzymes higher than a dog with a LS and that was your statement.

This makes the 13th time I've been misquoted... this is what I said:

"The dog's AST and ALT are/were very high.
These two values will become elevated when toxins are involved. (By toxins, I mean anything ingested to vaccines received.) In dogs that have Liver Shunt, these values are most often only mildly elevated. Vaccines, such as Lepto, can cause higher elevations of these liver enzymes, and the OP's dog has been repeatedly vaccinated against Lepto. Or maybe the dog has contracted Lepto."

All this means is that the liver enzymes of a Liver Shunt dog can be 2-3 fold higher than normal bc of the Liver shunt. When this Liver shunt dog gets a vaccine(s) (any vaccine, including Lepto) it could possibly raise this LS dog's enzymes higher than the elevation seen when tested before the vaccine was given, when the elevation was due to the dog having LS.

The point of this statement is: depending on how elevated the enzymes are of the OP's dog, (she did not state the actual number), the elevation of the liver enzymes could be due to the dog having a shunt, and/or being vaccinated. If the elevation of the dog's ALT is 200-300, that elevation is reflective of the elevation commonly seen in LS dogs with out vaccine involvement. If the OP's dog's ALT is 600, then the vet has to take into consideration that half of this elevation may be caused by the LS, and the other half may be caused by the vaccines or another factor. As "coticocosteroids are potentially hepatotoxic" per The diagnostic approach to asymptomatic dogs with elevated liver enzyme activities - Veterinary Medicine, (see chart), I was just questioning their use in this LS dog.

Originally Posted by 107barney

I am curious though. I'm going to have have my dog's blood drawn after the lepto vaccination is administered just to see if this is true. Let's poke Teddy since he has no liver problems and his liver enzymes and BATs are completely normal. Of course, he could have a reaction to the vaccine which might throw off my 'study.'

Yes, you could, but, again, I was talking about LS dogs and elevated liver enzymes, not normal, non-LS dogs.