I've repeatedly said I cannot speak
specifically to orcas, as I have not read any in-depth material on them. I also said that if they have shorter life spans in captivity, that's certainly an indicator that they aren't doing well. It seems reasonable to me to think that some animals could do well and others couldn't.
This entire subject is about orcas. No need to expound on other species not relevant to this... i.e. giraffes
"It's inherently cruel to keep animals in captivity." Really? Why? This seems to me to be an entirely emotional, anthropormorphic argument.
If you are going to quote me, at least get it right. I said it is inherently cruel to keep *some* species in captivity.
Nature is "perfectly cruel." That's not a fact, it's a philosophy, which is fine, but it's not really something you can speak to either way. Either you feel that way or you don't.
Millions of years of animals doing perfectly fine without our intervention says otherwise. If it is a philosophy, it's backed up by fact.
Just curious, has anyone who is so passionately against training actually read any studies on how this works? Because I have read a lot, and honestly, to me, "reducing an orca to begging for scraps" sounds incredibly like spin to me.
What else would you describe the Sea World type shows as being? They do tricks for food....'nuff said.
"Whales are held captive for amusement and there is no getting around this." I'm sorry, but this is FALSE. OF COURSE the whales are being studied in captivity! We study EVERYTHING. Why would whales be different?
Can you point to any meaningful research that being done while they do tricks for food? Sorry, I can't.
FYI, a lot of the "degrading" tricks animals perform, they came up with themselves. It's a basic concept in training, that even fairly low-intelligence animals can do, which is "show me something I haven't seen before". A lot of tricks that dolphins can do, for instance, hopping around on their back fin, aren't shaped by the trainer's goal. It's something the dolphin thinks is cool, and offers as a behavior.
Why the need to train whales in the first place? They are an ocean dweller being confined to what amounts to a fish bowl.
I have to say, I've found this conversation pretty frustrating, because it doesn't seem like people are taking time to really consider the circumstances and educate themselves on these topics. Does nobody else here train their dogs? Those training techniques you're using were perfected on marine mammals. These arguments are totally emotional. Emotional is fine, but it can't be the entire basis for an opinion (IMO!). I'm okay with people disagreeing, but please, use some real information, not just your gut and a link to an article written by someone who hasn't deeply researched the topic.
As I said before, there is no equivalent to having whales kept in captivity. What do dogs have to do with this? Perhaps you should educate yourself on the uniqueness of this situation (captive whales). And, since dogs have been man's companion for thousands of years, I would suspect that we have learned training techniques along the way before adopting dolphin training methods.
If anyone is interested in an actual history of animal training, zoo keeping or marine biology, please feel free to PM me for book recommendations. I don't feel like what I'm saying is getting heard at all, so I'm out. Peace. I still love you guys.
