Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieMother 
So we are talking operant and classical conditioning and skinner and Pavlov both run hand in hand and if you can do it for humans it all the same for dogs.
With clicker you have a little more room to make a mistake you can ignore a thing wrongly marked and it will extinguish at upper levels of training dogs or anything it not forgiving as much.
Yes it is..... I can work clicker without the click and get human kids to respond. I work learning theory with them.... Follow this I have a two year old who nos right left and center. I whip out a bunch of M and Ms cause I want and need her to get ready to go outside... No no no so I eat and M and M go get your shoes on, please... on no no no I eat another no I using what is called Negative punishment to get her to respond... she looks at me and the shoes and the M and M and figures it out.. She gets her shoes on and I pass her a handful of M and Ms the next time she says no she looks at me and stops and goes and does what I ask to see what in it for her this time it a simple thank you and a pat on the back no M and Ms but now I have a human child doing as I asked. It not bribery as I do not offer the item with a do it and you can have it nor to I give something all the time.. it a do as asked ans maybe something comes your way.
I went with negative Punishment as I could not get the positive reinforcement in with the Nos and her not doing it what I needed so nothing to positively reinforce. Negative Punishmant is simpley taking away something good or something a person or animal will work for. It sound bad but it a very mild.
I will not use positive punishment on any thing like Cesar does which is really adding something not nice or negative reinforcement which will increase a bad behavior as it taking away the positive punisher which could be a spanking or a in the case of a dog yank or choke chain. Or only scolding when doing bad things.
Now in dogs when I need a negative punishment I send my dog to its kennel it is a mild reminder that it needs not jump on anyone coming in the door or I make her back and down if she jumps at a ball in someones hand. I may increas a wait at the top of the stairs if it forgets and moves down the stairs before I get down.
Best book to get this all clear and understood is Pam Rieds book but in know not the name at this time as it on my home computer. Pam Dennisons book The complete idiot's guide to postive dog training is a good book just ignore she says dogs are pack animals she a little slow in that area.
I loss you yet.
JL
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Actually, I understood what you said perfectly, and sometimes people get the terms negative and positive confused, and even some experts use the words incorrectly. Most people think of negative as something bad, or positive as something good, so when using these words with people who don't understand learning theory, it can be easily misinterpreted. We learned that negative was taking something away, and positive was giving something. Also, a reinforcer was anything that increased the probability of a response, and a punishment was anything that decreased the probability of a response, at least that how my school taught it. When you say the word "punishment" around some people, they go nuts, and think you are mistreating your animal. But like I said before, I understand the theory much better than the application.