lee, it isn't the breeders causing the trouble but a few non breeders. That's why most of us breeders stay away. The others want the forum so we basically gave it to them and now people are not being helped by experienced breeders but by those that don't even know what it is like to stay up and feed a puppy every hour round the clock for several days and all the other little things about breeding that isn't learned in a book. Just my opinion and opinion are like buttholes, everyone has one.