YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community - View Single Post - Bile Acid Test- vet want to now do biopsy. I am so worried

sadiesamie · 01-29-2008, 10:47 PM

First of all i want to thank eveyone for their reponses. This is a long one- but i guess i have lots to say LOL i want to make sure you have all the details. :-) here goes...

Ok so today my husband talks to the vet. He tells her that we aren’t ready to do a liver biopsy and at this point we may just want to be referred to the specialist. (we saw a specialist that treated my other dog Sadie with her protein issues a couple months back and we really liked him) If we had we seen him a few months ago… we would have saved a lot of money from unnessessary tests –imo- that were done on Sadie.

So the vet says she has no problem referring us if that’s what we want to do. My husband just told her that he thought it was too soon to do a biopsy and that we not only did not have the money BUT we also wanted to do more research.

After finding out the venison was not good for her – there was no way that I could give it to her anymore- not even just a tiny amount of it for giving her meds.
So-I go to the pet store today in hopes of finding a low protein canned food ONLY so I have something to use to give meds with and that’s it.
And there really aren’t any. A guy that works there was helping me and he told me that a small can of Wellness contains 40% or more protein. He also seemed to think that this could throw off liver values/bat.
I decide to get the lowest protein in canned that I could find (Innova Senior with 4.5% protein) The Wellness has 8.0%.

Again- we decide that we are ONLY going to use a super, super small amount used to give meds with ONLY. I am going to try to use the dry food (that I wet) for the meds but just in case I wanted to have something on hand in case it didn’t work out. Well-I did use the dry food that I wet first to give the pills and it worked out good so I very well may not need to use the canned food after all.

My husband told the vet that since Samie’s last test we had been giving her the Wellness canned and we think that may have something to do with her values coming back higher. She said if we wanted to modify her diet and eliminate the canned food and keep her on the Denamarin and then retest she was ok with that. (Just yesterday she was in a hurry to biopsy) ???? go figure.

I do have to say that I was so impressed with the ingredients with the Wellness dry (we had just switched to this) so I decided to change the canned food that I was currently using (Innova Senior formula) to the Wellness brand. I do know that most Innova foods contain high amounts of protein) too high for our little dogs to eat it I think. But this was the senior formula, and it is 4.5% protein. I am really uneducated also on the way the breakdown works on the canned food. I don’t understand when the ingredients are listed as 8% fat when it is actually more than that. (again- I don’t understand it but I know that can is not only 8% fat)

And with us just recently switching to the Wellness. I was so impressed with the food and it’s ingredients- I decided to get the Wellness canned (instead of the Innova I had been giving them). I started giving more of the canned wellness (venison and also duck) more often. Not as main source of feeding, but I would put maybe a tablespoon or so on Samie’s food. And then again I would use it to give her med 2 times a day. And ALSO as a treat maybe 2 times more for the night.

With Sadies allerergies this seemed to help her so I was using the canned food as treats. SO maybe 5 times total for the day I would give the canned food. say a ½ - 1 teas for samie each time. and then a good tablespoon with her breakfast and dinner. Then I went out and bought the Wellness “wellbites” to give those as treats too since they have such great ingredients. Never more than ½ a square a day.
Well come to find out treats and canned contain large amounts of protein. Which as we know are not good for Samie now.

I am really hoping that the Wellness canned venison & sweet potato and the Duck & sweet potato was too much protein for her and if we eliminate it and continue the Denamarin her numbers will come down. The vet said that she will research food options with a Hills specialist- I don’t want to hear that bc she knows how I feel about their food and what goes into it. But she said we could monitor her again if we’d like. This time around though we are going to eliminate the canned food and treats. I got some sweet potato fries today that have 6 gr protein to give as a treat. I am praying that by eliminating the canned food her numbers will improve.

But she is doing really good on the Wellness Weight Mgt dry food- it is 17 % protein and 6 % fat. She is losing weight on this food. Do they make a food lower than that in protein? In the mean time we decided to start her back up on the Denamarin (her last pill was last Thursday and her retest was this past Saturday) I know that Denmarin is a supplement and not sure how it really works? I had been feeding Samie at 6:30am and 6:30 pm and then waiting until 10:30-11:00pm before bed to give her the Denmarin. Apparently this isn’t supposed to be given with other meds and you have to wait a few hours after eating to give it to her.
I don’t even know if this is the best time to give it to her. I work Mon-Friday both my husband and I so I don’t know what else to do. Does anyone think she is getting the full benefits of this Denamarin at the time I am giving it? Or should I think about trying to figure out a different time to give it to her? I get up at 6:00 and feed them right then. Then I have to leave the house within the hour.

We asked the vet also about Denosyl? But my husband spoke with one of the receptionists at the vet and she said she would check with the vet and call us back. Well when the vet tech called my husband back she said that she could have the Denamarin ready for me to pick up tonight and also she called in Ursodiol 35 mg for Samie too. I have no idea what this is? It is a med? It is a supplement? and once again- we don’t get enough info. But this is why my husband talks to the vet in the first place. She is always so quick to explain and I could never absorb it all enough to relay what she said back to my husband. So I decided to let him take over. We didn’t get a chance to ask her about the Hepato support. But I want to know more about that.
My friend works at an emergency vet and says they deal with this vet a lot and she has reassured me that we are going to a very good place- she said the best of the best so….. I trust her. And there are very good- just sometimes test happy. They are very pricey too. But when it comes to our pets. I want the best for them and I will pay what I have to.
Below is a section I copied from a MVD link I researched…
Nutriceuticals- compounds that are not considered “drugs”- can also improve liver function. Milk thistle (“silymarin”) can help improve liver function and regeneration. Because the government does not regulate over-the-counter compounds, purchase of specially formulated veterinary supplements is recommended. Two veterinary companies that sell milk thistle include Nutrimax (“Marin”) and RxVitamins (“Hepatosupport”). Veterinarians may also prescribe Denosyl (SAM-e) to improve liver function.
My questions:
1. Can someone tell me why Hepatosupport is better than Denamarin? If I have to I will order it?
2. Has anyone ever heard of URSODOIL? It’s a beef flavored liquid is all I know. I need to research it more before I give it to her.
3. What are the best times do you think to give the liver supplements? I am currently giving 4 hours after dinner.
4. are we safe to wait this out another 30 days. (no symptoms of any kind that we notice) if anything she is doing really really well.

Sorry this is so long- and sorry for not posting sooner- I had it all typed up and ready to post and the darn site timed out on me. I guess I was taking too long LOL 
I will check back. I am not giving the Ursodiol until i have more info on it. I also need more info on the Hepatosupport - is this something that can only be purchased on line or would the vet have it?

01-29-2008, 10:47 PM	#12
sadiesamie YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: McKinney, Texas Posts: 604	update from Vet today First of all i want to thank eveyone for their reponses. This is a long one- but i guess i have lots to say LOL i want to make sure you have all the details. :-) here goes... Ok so today my husband talks to the vet. He tells her that we aren’t ready to do a liver biopsy and at this point we may just want to be referred to the specialist. (we saw a specialist that treated my other dog Sadie with her protein issues a couple months back and we really liked him) If we had we seen him a few months ago… we would have saved a lot of money from unnessessary tests –imo- that were done on Sadie. So the vet says she has no problem referring us if that’s what we want to do. My husband just told her that he thought it was too soon to do a biopsy and that we not only did not have the money BUT we also wanted to do more research. After finding out the venison was not good for her – there was no way that I could give it to her anymore- not even just a tiny amount of it for giving her meds. So-I go to the pet store today in hopes of finding a low protein canned food ONLY so I have something to use to give meds with and that’s it. And there really aren’t any. A guy that works there was helping me and he told me that a small can of Wellness contains 40% or more protein. He also seemed to think that this could throw off liver values/bat. I decide to get the lowest protein in canned that I could find (Innova Senior with 4.5% protein) The Wellness has 8.0%. Again- we decide that we are ONLY going to use a super, super small amount used to give meds with ONLY. I am going to try to use the dry food (that I wet) for the meds but just in case I wanted to have something on hand in case it didn’t work out. Well-I did use the dry food that I wet first to give the pills and it worked out good so I very well may not need to use the canned food after all. My husband told the vet that since Samie’s last test we had been giving her the Wellness canned and we think that may have something to do with her values coming back higher. She said if we wanted to modify her diet and eliminate the canned food and keep her on the Denamarin and then retest she was ok with that. (Just yesterday she was in a hurry to biopsy) ???? go figure. I do have to say that I was so impressed with the ingredients with the Wellness dry (we had just switched to this) so I decided to change the canned food that I was currently using (Innova Senior formula) to the Wellness brand. I do know that most Innova foods contain high amounts of protein) too high for our little dogs to eat it I think. But this was the senior formula, and it is 4.5% protein. I am really uneducated also on the way the breakdown works on the canned food. I don’t understand when the ingredients are listed as 8% fat when it is actually more than that. (again- I don’t understand it but I know that can is not only 8% fat) And with us just recently switching to the Wellness. I was so impressed with the food and it’s ingredients- I decided to get the Wellness canned (instead of the Innova I had been giving them). I started giving more of the canned wellness (venison and also duck) more often. Not as main source of feeding, but I would put maybe a tablespoon or so on Samie’s food. And then again I would use it to give her med 2 times a day. And ALSO as a treat maybe 2 times more for the night. With Sadies allerergies this seemed to help her so I was using the canned food as treats. SO maybe 5 times total for the day I would give the canned food. say a ½ - 1 teas for samie each time. and then a good tablespoon with her breakfast and dinner. Then I went out and bought the Wellness “wellbites” to give those as treats too since they have such great ingredients. Never more than ½ a square a day. Well come to find out treats and canned contain large amounts of protein. Which as we know are not good for Samie now. I am really hoping that the Wellness canned venison & sweet potato and the Duck & sweet potato was too much protein for her and if we eliminate it and continue the Denamarin her numbers will come down. The vet said that she will research food options with a Hills specialist- I don’t want to hear that bc she knows how I feel about their food and what goes into it. But she said we could monitor her again if we’d like. This time around though we are going to eliminate the canned food and treats. I got some sweet potato fries today that have 6 gr protein to give as a treat. I am praying that by eliminating the canned food her numbers will improve. But she is doing really good on the Wellness Weight Mgt dry food- it is 17 % protein and 6 % fat. She is losing weight on this food. Do they make a food lower than that in protein? In the mean time we decided to start her back up on the Denamarin (her last pill was last Thursday and her retest was this past Saturday) I know that Denmarin is a supplement and not sure how it really works? I had been feeding Samie at 6:30am and 6:30 pm and then waiting until 10:30-11:00pm before bed to give her the Denmarin. Apparently this isn’t supposed to be given with other meds and you have to wait a few hours after eating to give it to her. I don’t even know if this is the best time to give it to her. I work Mon-Friday both my husband and I so I don’t know what else to do. Does anyone think she is getting the full benefits of this Denamarin at the time I am giving it? Or should I think about trying to figure out a different time to give it to her? I get up at 6:00 and feed them right then. Then I have to leave the house within the hour. We asked the vet also about Denosyl? But my husband spoke with one of the receptionists at the vet and she said she would check with the vet and call us back. Well when the vet tech called my husband back she said that she could have the Denamarin ready for me to pick up tonight and also she called in Ursodiol 35 mg for Samie too. I have no idea what this is? It is a med? It is a supplement? and once again- we don’t get enough info. But this is why my husband talks to the vet in the first place. She is always so quick to explain and I could never absorb it all enough to relay what she said back to my husband. So I decided to let him take over. We didn’t get a chance to ask her about the Hepato support. But I want to know more about that. My friend works at an emergency vet and says they deal with this vet a lot and she has reassured me that we are going to a very good place- she said the best of the best so….. I trust her. And there are very good- just sometimes test happy. They are very pricey too. But when it comes to our pets. I want the best for them and I will pay what I have to. Below is a section I copied from a MVD link I researched… Nutriceuticals- compounds that are not considered “drugs”- can also improve liver function. Milk thistle (“silymarin”) can help improve liver function and regeneration. Because the government does not regulate over-the-counter compounds, purchase of specially formulated veterinary supplements is recommended. Two veterinary companies that sell milk thistle include Nutrimax (“Marin”) and RxVitamins (“Hepatosupport”). Veterinarians may also prescribe Denosyl (SAM-e) to improve liver function. My questions: 1. Can someone tell me why Hepatosupport is better than Denamarin? If I have to I will order it? 2. Has anyone ever heard of URSODOIL? It’s a beef flavored liquid is all I know. I need to research it more before I give it to her. 3. What are the best times do you think to give the liver supplements? I am currently giving 4 hours after dinner. 4. are we safe to wait this out another 30 days. (no symptoms of any kind that we notice) if anything she is doing really really well. Sorry this is so long- and sorry for not posting sooner- I had it all typed up and ready to post and the darn site timed out on me. I guess I was taking too long LOL  I will check back. I am not giving the Ursodiol until i have more info on it. I also need more info on the Hepatosupport - is this something that can only be purchased on line or would the vet have it?