What digestive enzymes(brand) do you use?

[ilovejoel]

I was looking around for Joel. Is it better to get a kind made for dogs?

[kjc]

Dogzymes at Nature's Farmacy: DOGZYMES Digestive Enhancer Dissolvable Powder – 1 Pound » Natures Farmacy Inc.

[Ellie May]

I don't use enzymes unless EPI is suspected (in which case they are a trusted veterinary product).

Taken from petdiets.com:
My lab has been on the Pat Mckay.com program makes a big deal about the fact that all enzymes are killed in processed food and that the dog needs enzymes. How do your address that point?
Someone is attempting to rewrite a basic physiology! This is so wrong on many points.



1) The normal dog pancreas has been measured to produce something on the order of 70X the amount of protein and fat enzymes needed to digest a meal. The enzymes used to digest carbohydrates are actually sitting in the small intestinal mucosa, which in total has a surface area about the size of a football field. Evidence that most commercial dog foods without enzyme addition have an overall digestibility of 85-90% attests to their endogenous enzyme production. I think not producing feces is a bad idea, and that this level of digestibility is about right.



2) There is only one medical situation whereby additional enzymes are need and the condition is called Pancreatic Enzymes Insufficiency (PEI). Pancreatic function in this regard can be easily evaluated by a simple, single fasted blood test called a TLI. If your dog is documented to have PEI, the current recommendation is to add either fresh frozen porcine/bovine pancreas OR a commercially produced dehydrated powdered preparation of the same. These PEI dogs have very clear unmistakable clinical signs that do not appear until nearly 90+% of pancreas as been destroyed to give you again some idea of the reserve enzymatic capacity of the canine pancreas.



3) If enzymes to digest food were already in the food, then the food would self digest or undergo autolysis and be a pool of mush before being fed. In fact, food degradation [say a piece of meat left on the counter for 2-5 days] occurs because digestion by microbial contaminates on the surface have begun to "digest" the food. The unexposed center of the meat will be intact. Simply adding "enzymes" to a normal dog's foods does not increase the overall digestibility sufficiently to warrant lifting dollars from your wallet into someone else's.



4) Some ads for these supplements do correctly point out that the pet does not have enzymes to digest plant material - fiber. No mammal has enzymes to digest the structural components of plants, i.e., cellulase, etc. Only microbes in the rumen of cows, within the stomach of termites or in the large bowel of you and your dog can digest plant fiber. Even if you provide cellulases and they actually work in the small intestine of the dog (highly unlikely b/c they were not designed to work in that environment) the smaller subsequent fragments produced by the digestion are unlikely to be absorbed across the gut wall because again, cellulose subunits were not designed to be digested, hence not recognized by carriers within the small bowel of mammals.



For example; cellulose is made of glucose units but using a beta 1-4 linkage which is different from the glucose in starch or glycogen that uses an alpha 1-4 linkage. That one small differences beta vs. alpha renders the glucose within cellulose unavailable to mammals because it changes the whole configuration of the subsequent disaccharide unit.



Buying enzyme supplements for your normal healthy pet is NOT needed. Sellers of such products are playing on general ignorance and obfuscation. Physiology is being "rewritten" here by those who have a product to sell. And because things have gotten "out of hand" in the pet supplement market, the FDA is considering pressing our current laws into effect that would require such claims to be validated. If and when they do, it will be most interesting to see which supplement companies and/or products survive. I assure you most will simply disappear.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I don't use enzymes unless EPI is suspected (in which case they are a trusted veterinary product).

Taken from petdiets.com:
My lab has been on the Pat Mckay.com program makes a big deal about the fact that all enzymes are killed in processed food and that the dog needs enzymes. How do your address that point?
Someone is attempting to rewrite a basic physiology! This is so wrong on many points.



1) The normal dog pancreas has been measured to produce something on the order of 70X the amount of protein and fat enzymes needed to digest a meal. The enzymes used to digest carbohydrates are actually sitting in the small intestinal mucosa, which in total has a surface area about the size of a football field. Evidence that most commercial dog foods without enzyme addition have an overall digestibility of 85-90% attests to their endogenous enzyme production. I think not producing feces is a bad idea, and that this level of digestibility is about right.



2) There is only one medical situation whereby additional enzymes are need and the condition is called Pancreatic Enzymes Insufficiency (PEI). Pancreatic function in this regard can be easily evaluated by a simple, single fasted blood test called a TLI. If your dog is documented to have PEI, the current recommendation is to add either fresh frozen porcine/bovine pancreas OR a commercially produced dehydrated powdered preparation of the same. These PEI dogs have very clear unmistakable clinical signs that do not appear until nearly 90+% of pancreas as been destroyed to give you again some idea of the reserve enzymatic capacity of the canine pancreas.



3) If enzymes to digest food were already in the food, then the food would self digest or undergo autolysis and be a pool of mush before being fed. In fact, food degradation [say a piece of meat left on the counter for 2-5 days] occurs because digestion by microbial contaminates on the surface have begun to "digest" the food. The unexposed center of the meat will be intact. Simply adding "enzymes" to a normal dog's foods does not increase the overall digestibility sufficiently to warrant lifting dollars from your wallet into someone else's.



4) Some ads for these supplements do correctly point out that the pet does not have enzymes to digest plant material - fiber. No mammal has enzymes to digest the structural components of plants, i.e., cellulase, etc. Only microbes in the rumen of cows, within the stomach of termites or in the large bowel of you and your dog can digest plant fiber. Even if you provide cellulases and they actually work in the small intestine of the dog (highly unlikely b/c they were not designed to work in that environment) the smaller subsequent fragments produced by the digestion are unlikely to be absorbed across the gut wall because again, cellulose subunits were not designed to be digested, hence not recognized by carriers within the small bowel of mammals.



For example; cellulose is made of glucose units but using a beta 1-4 linkage which is different from the glucose in starch or glycogen that uses an alpha 1-4 linkage. That one small differences beta vs. alpha renders the glucose within cellulose unavailable to mammals because it changes the whole configuration of the subsequent disaccharide unit.



Buying enzyme supplements for your normal healthy pet is NOT needed. Sellers of such products are playing on general ignorance and obfuscation. Physiology is being "rewritten" here by those who have a product to sell. And because things have gotten "out of hand" in the pet supplement market, the FDA is considering pressing our current laws into effect that would require such claims to be validated. If and when they do, it will be most interesting to see which supplement companies and/or products survive. I assure you most will simply disappear.

I have two friends with pups who have EPI. I would never use those supplements on a healthy pup.

[ilovejoel]

What's EPI? I thought it would be good for his reflux problems.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by ilovejoel

What's EPI? I thought it would be good for his reflux problems.

Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency (EPI)

Have you spoken with your vet about this? I would think maybe famotidine might help??

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by ilovejoel

What's EPI? I thought it would be good for his reflux problems.

Even if you were going to use these they are for the pancreas/intestines. It sounds like there is an esophageal issue here. Assuming everything has been ruled out (e.g. megaesophagus, esophagitis) your vet might let you give Pepcid or Reglan a go.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by ilovejoel

What's EPI? I thought it would be good for his reflux problems.

Or are you thinking probiotics?

[ilovejoel]

I think his reflux is from his food not digesting properly, I'm taking him back to the vets soon.

[Verbena]

I love Vitality Science. It is a wonderful company. You all know Guildenstern was really sick and I almost lost him. This stuff is amazing. Got him to eat. His eyes are brighter. He even put a little weight back on. Talk to Stephen. He really helped me. I can not say enough about their products.

https://www.vitalityscience.com

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by kjc

Dogzymes at Nature's Farmacy: DOGZYMES Digestive Enhancer Dissolvable Powder – 1 Pound » Natures Farmacy Inc.

I'm a fan of Nature's Farmacy products as well. You may also want to consider their Probiotic Max instead of their enzyme powder if you deem that enzymes aren't the issue here.

Originally Posted by ilovejoel

I think his reflux is from his food not digesting properly, I'm taking him back to the vets soon.

Mostly, reflux isn't really caused by undigested food. It's more due to problems with the LES (lower esophageal sphincter)...the LES closes and opens. For a variety of reasons, the LES may not function properly and it then doesn't close all the way, allowing for stomach contents to push back up into the esophagus. An inadequate sphincter closing can be due to hernia, meds, fatty foods, hormone issues, local muscle issues, emptying/motility probs in the GI/tummy, being overweight, and just plain old heredity.

I don't know if it applies to dogs, but another thing to ask the vet about is whether h.pylori occurs in dogs. Being 'infected' w/ h.pylori can cause, amongst many other things, heartburn....which is often times 2ndary to a peptic ulcer when h.pylori is present.

The best things to try would be pepcid or reglan. You could also speak to the vet as to whether a low fat diet would help, but I'm not sure it'd make an appreciable difference...wouldn't hurt to try though.

He's not overweight is he? If so, weight loss may help.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Verbena

I love Vitality Science. It is a wonderful company. You all know Guildenstern was really sick and I almost lost him. This stuff is amazing. Got him to eat. His eyes are brighter. He even put a little weight back on. Talk to Stephen. He really helped me. I can not say enough about their products.

https://www.vitalityscience.com

What product are you using from there? Why does this company/Stephen sound familiar to me...is he a member here too? I can't recall why this is ringing a bell.

[Teegy]

I used AOR DPPzyme when Teegy was recovering from pancreatitis. I keep it in my doggy cupboard at all times