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Old 03-08-2009, 06:59 AM   #1
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Love Label Ingredient Reading & Food Nutrition Question

Chicken, Brown Rice, Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Barley, Duck Meal, Potatoes, Carrots, Chicken Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols), Tomato Pomace, Natural Flavor, Canola Oil, Brewers Yeast, Salmon Meal, Salmon Oil, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Spinach, Parsley Flakes, Cranberries, L-Lysine, L-Carnitine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

This is the info for Natural Balance Ultra. Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance® Ultra Premium Dog Food

Why is NB rated so highly????

Maybe I am reading the Ingredients wrong but from what I learned on these boards (Thanks)...
(1) The first ingredient is Chicken. Great. But it is not "Chiken Meal". That means it is given a higher placing on the ingredients list than it would if the moistur/water were removed.
(2) The second ingredient is Brown Rice. That is good except it is the 2nd ingredient behind the Chicken which has water/moisture counted in it's weight so it is higher on the list.
(3) Lamb Meal is 3rd. Awesome! No issues there.
(4) 4th and 5th are Oatmeal and Barley. Ok but shouldn't there have been more "Meat type Meals" above these?
(5) 6th ingredient is Duck Meal...Great

I guess my main issue/question is why does it seem to have a number of healthy starches above the Meat ingredients on the list?
The Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Barley 7 Potatoes is what i am refering to.
Shouldn't the first 2 or 3 be "Meal type Meats"????
I really want to understand all this so if I have misunderstood something along the way I want to clear it up.

THANK so much for your thoughts and input.
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:22 AM   #2
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Yes, the chicken meal thing is correct and there are a lot of grains in this food. Then again, if chicken meal, lamb meal and duck meal were the first three ingredients, it would be a very high protein food. Not everyone would want that either...

The guaranteed analysis is a much better gauge of how much protein the food contains but it counts all protein...even what there is in the grains and veggies.
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:35 PM   #3
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This website might help you with your question and Whole Dog Journal also does a great job but you need a subscription with them:

The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?

Whole Dog Journal is the monthly guide to natural dog care and training.
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Old 03-08-2009, 04:35 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ellie May View Post
Yes, the chicken meal thing is correct and there are a lot of grains in this food. Then again, if chicken meal, lamb meal and duck meal were the first three ingredients, it would be a very high protein food. Not everyone would want that either...

The guaranteed analysis is a much better gauge of how much protein the food contains but it counts all protein...even what there is in the grains and veggies.
What is a good protein level?
A good fiber level?
Is there such a thing as to much protein or does that depend on each individual dog and not just the breed?
It seems the more I read the more confused and different information I find.
When I think I have a good food (EVO Turkey & Chicken) I see something that says there are problems with EVO's protein level being too high.
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:47 AM   #5
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I feed my pup EVO kibble, and he's doing so much better on it than he was on his previous grain-filled lower-protein food, and he just had bloodwork done for his neuter that confirmed that he is very healthy and happy eating EVO, and his organs are processing it just like healthy organs should.

However, it's true that high protein foods are not right for every dog, or every yorkie either. Just like not every yorkie is allergic to grains, or corn, or chicken the way some are, not every yorkie does best on a high protein grain-free food like EVO. But of course on the flipside, some yorkies do outstanding on a great quality high protein diet - my Nikko happens to be one of those.

There are also well-reasoned sounding arguments advocating high protein and for low protein, and I honestly can't find an absolute answer. In dog food, there seems to be much more money dumped into marketing than into solid scientific long-term research, unfortunately. So in my opinion, you just have to decide to feed what you feel best feeding, then go for it. After that, you should watch how your dog reacts, how his temperment may or may not change, how his coat and eyes and everything else looks, how his stools look, and if you want to, it would even be great if you wanted to go get bloodwork done on him after you've been feeding whatever you decide to feed for awhile.

You're on the right track though, and it looks like you're really doing your research as best as possible. I went through a good month or two of obsessing over foods and protein and grains and raw and so on... Now I still obsess a little, and I'm still working on figuring out if I'm going to feed raw, which I really do want to... but at least for the moment, I feel good that Nikko is happy and healthy eating his EVO. I have no doubt you'll find a good food for your dog too, even if it takes you a couple tries. Just reason through as much as you can, and pay close attention to any changes you see in your baby when you change foods. S'all good.

Lauren & Nikko
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonlauren View Post
I feed my pup EVO kibble, and he's doing so much better on it than he was on his previous grain-filled lower-protein food, and he just had bloodwork done for his neuter that confirmed that he is very healthy and happy eating EVO, and his organs are processing it just like healthy organs should.

However, it's true that high protein foods are not right for every dog, or every yorkie either. Just like not every yorkie is allergic to grains, or corn, or chicken the way some are, not every yorkie does best on a high protein grain-free food like EVO. But of course on the flipside, some yorkies do outstanding on a great quality high protein diet - my Nikko happens to be one of those.

There are also well-reasoned sounding arguments advocating high protein and for low protein, and I honestly can't find an absolute answer. In dog food, there seems to be much more money dumped into marketing than into solid scientific long-term research, unfortunately. So in my opinion, you just have to decide to feed what you feel best feeding, then go for it. After that, you should watch how your dog reacts, how his temperment may or may not change, how his coat and eyes and everything else looks, how his stools look, and if you want to, it would even be great if you wanted to go get bloodwork done on him after you've been feeding whatever you decide to feed for awhile.

You're on the right track though, and it looks like you're really doing your research as best as possible. I went through a good month or two of obsessing over foods and protein and grains and raw and so on... Now I still obsess a little, and I'm still working on figuring out if I'm going to feed raw, which I really do want to... but at least for the moment, I feel good that Nikko is happy and healthy eating his EVO. I have no doubt you'll find a good food for your dog too, even if it takes you a couple tries. Just reason through as much as you can, and pay close attention to any changes you see in your baby when you change foods. S'all good.

Lauren & Nikko
Just make sure you check Nikko's triglycerides regularly. The high protein foods are also high in fat. Innova's Evo is especially high. A little Maltese on another forum developed high triglycerides and fat deposits behind his eyes from Evo. He was switched to Wellness and his bloodwork was normal.

You might also want to read this thread. Michelle's Lacy was diagnosed with a fatty liver and her high protein diet is suspected.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...me-advice.html
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:47 AM   #7
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Thanks for all the replies!!!!!
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Old 03-09-2009, 10:44 AM   #8
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Just make sure you check Nikko's triglycerides regularly. The high protein foods are also high in fat. Innova's Evo is especially high. A little Maltese on another forum developed high triglycerides and fat deposits behind his eyes from Evo. He was switched to Wellness and his bloodwork was normal.

You might also want to read this thread. Michelle's Lacy was diagnosed with a fatty liver and her high protein diet is suspected.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...me-advice.html
I think we have to be a little careful when making correlations or assumptions like this (not saying you are making the assumption, Ladymom , but that maltese owner). Because, I don't think there is proof that the cause of the Maltese's problem was just diet (despite the bloodwork), nor was there proof in Lacy's case. Fatty liver is often idiopathic - in both dogs and humans.

What is possibly more likely is that both these dogs had some kind of predisposition toward these disease states, just waiting for the right trigger - if it ever came. *Boom*, the trigger was introduced and a health issue was instigated.

Of the same vein, think of diabetes - say one of these dogs, unknowingly, had a genetic vulnerability toward diabetes and this particular owner chose a high grain/carb diet for this dog, the dog becomes obese bc it cannot properly process carbs - diabetes sets in. Is it the fault of the diet? No, not directly. It's a combination of nurture and nature - as are almost *all* disease states. In this case - a scenario could unfold here at YT where all of a sudden everyone was in an alarmist state saying "DON'T feed high carb/grain diets - they *cause* diabetes!" - and that's simply not true.

That's how myths get started and I just think we should be careful there - we've seen it here before. Such as the myth that high protein diets cause kidney/liver issues - we all know that's not true, yet the myth prevails.

My point is, I hope we're all careful in blaming this diet, or that diet, or Petzlife (a possible suspect, initially, in Lacy's case), or this product, or that product as the cause of a disease state. It's almost never that simple. I mean no offense, it just concerns me quite a bit.
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:01 PM   #9
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I get the whole dog journal and they recently rated wet and dry food and the nb was in both of them, they test all of their food every batch for toxins and they are available to look at on the computer. They dont have any preseratives and all that extra junk in their food
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Old 03-09-2009, 08:54 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom View Post
I think we have to be a little careful when making correlations or assumptions like this (not saying you are making the assumption, Ladymom , but that maltese owner). Because, I don't think there is proof that the cause of the Maltese's problem was just diet (despite the bloodwork), nor was there proof in Lacy's case. Fatty liver is often idiopathic - in both dogs and humans.

What is possibly more likely is that both these dogs had some kind of predisposition toward these disease states, just waiting for the right trigger - if it ever came. *Boom*, the trigger was introduced and a health issue was instigated.

Of the same vein, think of diabetes - say one of these dogs, unknowingly, had a genetic vulnerability toward diabetes and this particular owner chose a high grain/carb diet for this dog, the dog becomes obese bc it cannot properly process carbs - diabetes sets in. Is it the fault of the diet? No, not directly. It's a combination of nurture and nature - as are almost *all* disease states. In this case - a scenario could unfold here at YT where all of a sudden everyone was in an alarmist state saying "DON'T feed high carb/grain diets - they *cause* diabetes!" - and that's simply not true.

That's how myths get started and I just think we should be careful there - we've seen it here before. Such as the myth that high protein diets cause kidney/liver issues - we all know that's not true, yet the myth prevails.

My point is, I hope we're all careful in blaming this diet, or that diet, or Petzlife (a possible suspect, initially, in Lacy's case), or this product, or that product as the cause of a disease state. It's almost never that simple. I mean no offense, it just concerns me quite a bit.
You are absolutely right. I didn't word that right. I shouldn't have said that Quincy's high triglycerides were caused by Evo because that can't be proven.

Anyway you can delete my post?
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:45 AM   #11
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You are absolutely right. I didn't word that right. I shouldn't have said that Quincy's high triglycerides were caused by Evo because that can't be proven.

Anyway you can delete my post?
I think it would be very safe to say "I believe Quincy's high triglycerides were caused by Evo".
No need to delete. that seems harsh

I think sometimes we are afraid to say what we believe because we fear being "slammed".
It is your belief though and you are "allowed" to have it in a free speaking forum
Personally, I WANT to know if someone feels a food or any other product did not have a positve effect on their pet.
Just as we would want to know opinions on what we like it is important here at YT (I believe) to know what others do not like for their pets.
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